January 15, 2008

The Nisshin Maru turning back to the whaling grounds

Posted by Irene onboard the Esperanza

The Japanese government's whaling factory ship has now turned south, seemingly heading back towards the whaling grounds. The fleet can't hunt without the Nisshin Maru. We intend to take non-violent action in order to prevent further hunt in the Southern Ocean whale sanctuary.

Comments

Sara, I saw your news spot last night on Network Australia (ABC Asia Pacific)from the Esperanza. A great report but what a shame you presented it in a furlined hooded jacket. You do realise the mixed message you're sending encouraging us to save whales while you're wearing fur? Think next time before heading in front of the cameras.Keep up the good work.

My admiration for Greenpeace continues.

No one can do everything but we can all do something.

Please and for goodness sakes work with Sea Shepherd and share info or explain to us back here why two organisations risk their well being for the same end but seem to have this spat about who has the moral high ground.

Am I right or wrong you both want to stop whaling.

It is no different to the Ausralian Police (my country) sharing info with say the Texas Police who have a Capital Punishment policy that we don't have in Australia.

Please, please, please look at the reality of the situation and don't get bogged down with petty politics.

Good luck to all

Bill

Standby the boats!!!

What are your thought on the next step from the Japanese ? Obviously they intend resuming the hunt/kill and will not like an audience.
You have your own set of plans in place, but do you think you can match the kill fleet at all levels ?
Todays ruling has not, and will not, dampen their resolve to get their job done.
They simply don't care about the whales, you, or the considerations of the world.
Equally, I bet it has only strenghtened your resolve.
Things could get a little yucky from here, so please use a whole heap of common sense and remember you 40 are not the only ones fighting this battle.
Do take care.

Lance

I agree with Bill. Surely you can see that The Sea Shepherd now is what Greenpeace used to be like in the 70s, a little more militant perhaps but at least share your info with them. The people united will never be defeated! We are all watching very closely, and actions do speak louder than words. I accept you have your own barrow to push but sharing information is hardly going to lose greenpeace any funding.What other reason could you possibly have for not doing so? Oh and by the way do you answer your blogs? The whole world is watching...

May you all - and the whales - stay safe.
Take care,
x Jen

{The Japanese harpoon vessel Yushin Maru No. 2 has taken two Sea Shepherd volunteer crew members hostage. Benjamin Potts 28, an Australian citizen and Giles Lane, 35, a citizen of Great Britain are being held hostage onboard the whaling vessel. Both men were assaulted and then tied to the railings of the whaler. They were then moved and tied to the radar mast by the whalers.}
http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_080115_3.html

sorry green peace but your all dopes, while you chased the mother ship, the others were hunting and passing whales straight to "bluebird" -the cargo ship that will return to japan

{Australia's Federal Court on Tuesday ordered Japan to stop hunting and killing whales anywhere around its coastline or off Australian Antarctic territory.
The ruling, in a case brought by the Humane Society International, comes with a Japanese fleet sailing in Antarctic waters where they plan to kill around 1,000 whales this season.
Judge James Allsop found that the Japanese company Kyodo Senpaku Kaisha Ltd had killed Antarctic minke and fin whales in Australia's self-declared whale sanctuary, in contravention of Australian law.
The company effectively represents the Japanese whaling industry and runs the ships currently involved in the hunt.
"The court orders that the respondent be restrained from killing, injuring, taking or interfering with any Antarctic minke whale, fin whale or humpback whale in the Australian Whale Sanctuary," Allsop said.
The Australian Whale Sanctuary generally extends 200 nautical miles (370 kilometres) from the coast, but further in some areas to cover offshore waters and islands, according to the Australian government.}
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h1Tdo7OCzNiMvoRCaAZgh9bU1DJQ

Sea Shepherd is reporting 2 crew members have been take hostage aboard Yushin Maru No. 2 as they boarded her to deliver a message. The two are an Aussie and a Brit. If Japanese authorities were wise, they would hand them over quickly to a third party or your vessel, but just watch Japan play hard ball and order them returned to Japan for terrorist charges! If Australia has been angry about whaling now, I suspect her citizens will be in utter uproar soon. Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Greenpeace is making an error by not co-operating with Sea Shepherd.
Whilst in the eyes of the Japanese, Greenpeace is just as radical as Sea Shepherd, for its informed supporters it's attitude seems childish, unprofessional and a blatant betrayal of the whales.

Hi,

Let's not get cheated by what Paul Watson is saying.
The two SSCS activists are not "hostages". They are held in custody because they boarded illegally one of the ships of the Japanese fleet.

The Yushin-maru No.2 is not really a post office, is it? The two SSCS guys had nothing to do there.

Besides, it is highly probable that they first tried to foul the propeller of the Yushin-maru No.2 before "playing the postmen".

Please, please, please start co-operating with Sea Shepherd. Only when you start to work co-operatively together can we stop this needless killing. Taking photos and waving banners is NEVER going to stop the whalers - it needs direct action from both conservation societies. Now Sea Shepherd have had two crew members taken hostage, are Greenpeace going to follow the Law of the Sea and assist???? You offered assistance to the whalers last year so should do the same to Sea Shepherd this year.

"illegally killing whales" after Australia's Federal Court earlier Tuesday ordered the whaling to stop.

It seems unlikely to me that the two crewmen of the SS were arrested for delivering a message. But you can see their resolve to continue whaling. I suppose the men at least threatened them or their ship, and Captain Watson's latest remarks on his website only confirm that. ..And yes the whalers are going to be playing hardball in protecting themselves and their ships from damage, and I suppose they have a few tricks up their sleeve too.
We don't need tricks, escalation, and we don't need to encourage violent solutions. This is not entertainment where Rambo always wins. Every step we take in the name of peace and Love, brings us closer to that ideal. Every step we take in violence is one step closer to violent confrontation and human injury, ...and that is not going to help the whales. This mission as Greenpeace has stated, is to change the hearts and minds of the Japanese people, and people in all the world to bear wittness to this cruelty. ...and this is still the only real solution to put an end to this forever. Please don't be so arrogant as to put yourself above the human race. Believe in the good in every man and act upon it.

Thank you for bringing the matter to attention. Take good care of yourself and beware of any trick used by the catchers. Join with any organizations who care to save them!

Do you have Google Earth installed.. ?
This link will give you a good idea on the relative locations of the fleet and Esperanza...
http://teamyankee.110mb.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/shippositions.kml

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the visual rivalry between Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd is itself a valuable commodity in the effort to turn widely held sentiment against whaling into action. Effectuating attitudinal changes on a cultural basis is no easy short-term proposition, which everybody understands is to be accomplished only by the erosion of continued long term sustained pressure. Greenpeace, Sea Shepherd and even the seemingly more apathetic governments that support the IWC's ban on commercial whaling all exert pressue on whaling nations in different ways. Greenpeace's solid and supported assertions that it is not necessary to kill whales to study them is obviously the tactic that most undermines the credibility of the Japanese government when it comes to whaling and is also most likely to favorably sway opinion. Sea Shepherd's direct action brings urgency to the message. My view: everybody stay the course, and I bet there are a bunch of Greenpeacers who'd love to be on board the Steve Irwin right now.

Greenpeace is a non-violent organization, diferent from sea shepherd. Thats why they can not work together.

I also think you should have solidarity with Sea Shepherd. I get sad when I hear one environmental group fighting another.

Thank you all for all your good work and efforts on behalf of us, all the millions of people that support you.

Love you all!

Carolina

I also think Sea Shepherd is doing a great job. Boarding one of the vessels to deliver a message, has to have some kind of media aftermath.

Not sharing information is a bit childish in my opinion. The whales could benefit from cooperation instead of hostilities.

While I agree that full cooperation would be the best...Just let each follow their own consciences and support them both! All this Greenpeace bashing doesn't help or change anything. Bless all who engage and battle the murdering Japanese whalers! Peace be with you all AND the whales!

{Last year the Japanese whalers vowed to bring any captured whale defenders back to Japan to place on trial under charges of "eco-terrorism."}
http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_080115_4.html

The only thing that'll make the Japanese take any notice is money, or rather it's absence. There should be an international ban on all things Japanese untill they reverse this barbaric action, once they're hit in the pocket they'll take notice and it's something everyone can do easily. How about preparing a non violent list of Japanese products etc to avoid?

I see no need for all this bickering between GP and SSCS supporters...Just be grateful that they are both down there engaging the Japanese whalers and let them do their jobs each to their own consciences! Peace be with you all and the whales!
Be kind to each other, Michael/Nichiumi Moore

I support seashepherd.org whether you do or not, because the the harpoon doesn't care what Greenpeace thinks, or who you like or dislike for whatever reason, it's about the whales and dolphins. Get over your ivory tower.

If Esperanza had been working in tandem with Steve Irwin, Yushin Maru No. 2 could have been managed. Too late now Greenpeace, they got away and are headed for Japan. Yeechh! So much for solidarity.

Well I didn't think we'd find it, but here it is, ...the truth about it from Paul Watson himself.

This is a very recent statement by Captain Watson on the taking of the captives, "Mr Watson said the two hostages were acting peacefully, but a substance he described as "rancid butter acid, a stink bomb" was thrown by others in the inflatable craft onto the deck of the Japanese vessel to disrupt the crew and slow the vessel. - http://bowral.yourguide.com.au/news/national/general/whaling-hostages-tied-dunked-in-water/1162820.html

Try to imagine yourself one of the Japanese crew... You see this inflatable pull up to you from what you believe is a terrorist organization that has threatened to harm you. They throw a stink bomb on your deck to 'disrupt' you, and then two of their crew illegally board your ship for intentions you can only assume are hostile.
Who can blame them for acting in anger if they did. And is that the way you come in peace to deliver messages to people Mr Watson, ...throw a stink bomb first? Yeah, that will make them real happy to see you. You have no respect for the fate of your crew, and it is you that put them in this position. It is you and your history of violence and threats that is why the Japanese reacted as they did. Two years ago, when Greenpeace was confronting the whalers, ...there were times when they actually smiled and waved at each other. They would have easily accepted a message from them. It doesn't have to be with your signature punch in the face first and board their ship.
I truly hope no harm comes to these two that obviously want to save the whales, but in their eyes, why should they release them? When and if they do, they know they will only come back to attack them. Even though we don't agree with the perspective of others, we need to see things from their point of view, ...with humility, and as someone who would be their friend. This is the way we can reach people, and to have them see into our own hearts. There is no other way.
Abondon your violence Paul Watson, and put Love and Light into your sails, ...that's the message we really need you to bring to us.

how can the japanese whallers live with themsleves for hunting endangered species such as whales? surely this must be comparable to even the worst crimes committed by the human race?!? not only do we jepredise our lives by our consumerist society but also the lives of other species!

I don't understand why Greenpeace will not work cooperatively with The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society - now Sea Sheperd have 2 crew members that have boarded the Japanese whaler in the hope of discussing the laws and regulations attached to this sanctuary and they have been taken by the Japanese and are being held hostage tied to the radar mast.

But, it would seem that you don't even find this piece of information important enough to even mention on your web site.

And to think that it was Captain Paul Watson who was one of the original founders of Greenpeace.

I am old enough to remember when Greenpeace tried to stop the killing of baby seals off the Canadian east coast.

Now all you do is "photograph and document" and just how much does this cost????

Keep up the good work Esperanza folk, your heroes of the ocean.

Wish i was there with you, good luck from me sitting in cold and wet Wales :)

What is wrong with the rest of the world that they can sit back and watch this slaughtering of whales,i have been 100 metres from them on a boat what a spiritual experience. If it is not stopped we won't have any whales they will be extinct. It's about time that the Japanese stop lying to the world..keep up the good work

A solution?

Don't get me wrong, l am against hunting of whales in all its forms. I'm wondering if the following solution would work?

If the Japanese do manage to harpoon a whale, the whale could be then shot (or injected?) with a toxic solution such as cyanide.

The result: The whale dies quicker and more humanely and the whale meat becomes worthless. Furthermore, the knowledge the whale meat maybe contaminated with cyanide may reduce the whale meat market in Japan.

Any thoughts?

Keep up the good work Greenpeace.

Great work Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd, in spite of your child-like spat!
But here in Japan, nobody knows what's going on. The mainstream media ignore this campaign, with good reason, I guess. The only news is sourced from the fisheries department's spin-doctors which basically says that anyone who doesn't agree with them is a terrorist.
The government here is in decline, and the opposition gains strength every day. If more people wrote to the Democratic Party of Japan, they maybe able to see that they are on a winner with this issue; a majority of Japanese OPPOSE whaling. This campaign needs to be fought on many fronts!
Tally Ho!

Hey, lets all take our trawlers into Japanese waters & start taking their fish.

Then again, stop all this rubbish & enforce our law.
Send our Navy down there & blow the whalers out of the water - that's what happens to indonesian fishing boats that invade our waters.


Hi Nina, I know this is a load of postings back, but as far as my jacket is concerned - I can assure you that not even nylon was hurt in the making of the totally fake fur collar on my hood. But some acrylic fibres did feel some pain when they were sewn into place. Hope this reassures you.

Everyone,

Please just pray for the hostages and please stop bashing GP for standing by their beliefs. They for one did not take the hostages nor have they done anything wrong. Please lets focus on what is important and what is fact and that is 1. Whales have been killed. 2. Sea Shepherda and Green Peace or different organization regardless of who started it or not. 3. Doesn't everyone have policies at their work they have to follow or get in trouble for going against it.
Oh and Sarah in the picture you could tell it was fake fur some people just want to be petty and nit pick and not realize what you people have done and only dwell on things that are not going to impact anything. What good is all the bashing going to do? Is it saving the whales? Is it setting the hostages free...NO it isn't so stop.. Save your fingers to sign petitions or write letters, faxes, and anything else you can do to protest this and the hostages. Greenpeace thank you and take care. P.S. Tell Jiri his pictures are awesome and to keep up the awesome work. Tell Irene the video's are awesome I really enjoyed them and thank you so much.

The lies that pour out of the ICR continually amaze me, and should anger everyone. Their director-general, Minoru Morimoto (who also is a delegate to the IWC) insists the 2 captive Sea Shepherd members were never tied or restrained, yet photos from various news sites prove that is a lie. Whatever the Japanese ICR states, the opposite must be truth. Meanwhile as the Yushin Maru disappears with her 2 hostages, Morimoto states that there are plenty of whales to both watch AND kill & eat. See www.shm.com.au for his ridiculous comments.
Pics of tied, roped & restrained hostages:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23060183-2,00.html
http://www.smh.com.au/news/whale-watch/japan-ship-refuses-to-release-activists/2008/01/16/1200419835177.html

{“The Institute of Cetacean Research is acting like a terrorist organization,” said Steve Irwin’s 1st Officer Peter Brown. “Here they are taking hostages and making demands. Our policy is that we don’t respond to terrorist demands.”}
http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_080116_2.html

My theory is that the SSCS hostage scenario is a scheme cooked up by Watson to gain publicity / media attention, and it definitely stands to do just that as long as the media ignores the little problem that they boarded illegally after assaulting the vessel. While it definitely has potential to work in SSCS's favour, I think it was nonetheless a bit callous by Watson to play with the lives of his crew like that..

{the relevant Australian agencies were negligent in their oversight duties. It is about time the government showed some backbone with these fraudsters. The Oceanic Viking, other ACS contracted and RAN ships are not really suitable for Antarctic operations.}
http://blogs.smh.com.au/newsblog/archives/your_say/016989.html?page=fullpage#comments

Hello all, and thanks for commenting. Again: I can't reply to all, since we get so many comments.

First of all thank you for the supportive comments!

Forest: we are following the Nisshin Maru and were nowhere near the site.

John: that would unfortunately mean that they killed more whales, since the "scientific sample" would be spoiled!

Kristofer: we are not fighting, but some supporters and media seem keen on keeping that idea alive.

Edith: however flattering the thought for a poor old webbie I do not think the whole world is watching our blog. You'll find that the answer to your questions have been posted several times.

Emma: We are far from the site, and I wonder which part of the "law of the sea" you think is applicable here? About a year ago Sea Shepherd had lost track of one of their inaflatables, we replied to the distress call, as I am sure they would have done had we been in the same situation.

Fred: that is VERY unlikely.

Donna: We have both photos AND footage, and if you bothered to take a look you'd see that we've done a lot more than shooting photographs.

Bill: I am not sure that is a good comparison...

Take care all
Cheers
Iréne

Hi Irene,
From Forest Wild, Thank you for your uncensored attention to free speech here. I really respect that even if we butt heads. I love the webcams by the way and would like to discuss that sometime as I am a technophile type. My previous comment about Esperanza not being on hand to work with Steve Irwin (and the subsequent custody of 2 crew) was meant to highlight what happens when a tactical operation goes forward with no coordination between otherwise friendly forces. It was good to be tracking Nisshin Maru as you discuss, but without cooperation between GP & SSCS included it left both operations with half a force, you both need all "the force" that can be with you. The ships should be working together as a squad. Had this been the case either Steve Irwin would have been with you and Nisshin Maru, or Esperanza would have been with Steve Irwin and Yushin Maru #2 during the abduction and been able to help stop the escape of the Yushin Maru #2. Maybe next year a more unified command and plan will be ready, and will probably be needed when a new fleet of advanced whalers comes on line. You can bet they will have considered the capabilities (and weaknesses) of the Esperanza Team and Steve Irwin Team well ahead of time. "Game it out" (as the current corrupt administration in the USA would say), a schism between GP and SSCS is important to the whalers future strategy. Working the initial search together potentially could have been reduced in half from 10 days to two, for example, right? OK, enough mild ranting from me for now, peace to you, and strong, forward! Forest.

Congrats to sea shepherd and Greenpeace. Greenpeace for finding the whalers, and Sea Shepherd for making the hunt newsworthy. Despite your political differences, it's good to see that greenpeace crew care enough to (albiet covertly) get the coordinates to Captain Watson. We all know that people and newscasts only focus in on dramatic events and violence. Captain Watson has strategically put into action a plan that puts the plight of the whales into the entire world's tv sets. Absolutely incredible. I for one hope there are more antics. Captain Watson - this is one of your best campaigns EVER! Greenpeace, keep up the good work. Every year this gets harder for the whalers!

Cheers for those coordinates Dorian. I think we can ascertain that there is a bigger picture here in respect to inter-NGO coordination. This task force has 30 year plus experience and has taken on French Commandos and nuclear detonations, these japanese fishermen have got nothing, grab some pop-corn and enjoy the show I say :)

Hi Grateful Child, please dont think this is me taking sides as i am not. On the Sea Shepherd web Captain Watson did say they had thrown the substance but it went on to say that it was only thrown after they had taken the crew members prisoner. I suppose only they and the Japanese truly know exactly what happened though. I know you are opposed to violence, so am i and thats how it should be but we all have a different opinion on what constitues violence i suppose. My mum (who is 77) is also opposed to violence and is a great animal lover but she still squirts the neighbours cat with a water pistol when it trys to take the feeding birds from her garden. She would never physically harm the cat, she just wants to frighten it off.

I think there is room for different organisations to do what they believe is right to end the whaling, i can see both points of view and wont take sides, i am on the side of the whales. Both organisations are trying to stop the slaughter in different ways but they are both doing a lot more than i am and i thank everyone involved for risking their lives. All i can do is armchair protesting, sign petitions and get others to sign petitions. I wish everyone well and hope they all come home safe, including the whalers - even though i completely condemn what they are doing.

well done seashepherd. paul watson is a great man with a heart of gold.so much time was wasted with greenpeace refusing to work with seashepherd.its seems such a shame gp could be like this when the whales needed them both so urgently.ive met paul and worked on seashepherd and they are all so passionate about saving the whales and other marine life.there hearts are good and there fighting for the whales not for you and not for me but for the whales.we have enuf video footage of the japanesse killing whales.the time has come to say NO MORE!! dont film them STOP THEM!! the japs dont run from green peace they run from seashepherd(so the japs have said)so if they run and they dont hunt whos tactics actually work???step it up greenpeace.if paul watson can do it for over 30 years and not hurt a single person then surely you guys could do the same. give it a crack, the whales will love you for it im sure.peace!

Hi Oath...,
...and thanks for your feedback. I can only offer what I read, that the acid was thrown on deck to confuse the Japanese and slow the ship down. I would presume it was a diversion so their two crewmembers could climb aboard, and without being noticed. And don't you think it a bit strange they brought a stink bomb at all unless they intended to use it? I don't think that's part of the inventory of the Billy G. And does the water gun we spray a cat with stop them from hunting birds? Hardly, ...and that's quite impossible to teach them by forceful means that it's wrong to do that. Just like the Japanese, it may stop them for the moment, but they'll be back. I don't mean to critisize you Oath. I read and appreciate your comments very much here, and I know you are a good man. I'll just leave you all with some words of someone that had a birthday yesterday...

The ultimate weakness of violence
is that it is a descending spiral,
begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy.
Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
Through violence you may murder the liar,
but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.
Through violence you murder the hater,
but you do not murder hate.
In fact, violence merely increases hate....
Returning violence for violence multiples violence,
adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it.
~ Martin Luther King Jr.

p.s. I can only hope the news is correct concerning the two crewmen, that the Japanese will release them soon, and I appeal to them, and in a gesture of mercy for their families and Loved ones, to do so.

"Even though we don't agree with the perspective of others, we need to see things from their point of view."

"Grateful child"

Your language is soft but your words are very hard,condemning everybody who's not sharing your opinion.
So if you really mean this, then indeed, try to see things from another point of view! without condemning every act and every person (from sshepherd)that's not fitting your 'new age' philosophy.

I notice that the company which owns the
Nisshin
Maru is part of Nippon Suisan Kaisha, which owns a whole slew of sea food
companies in Canada, Chile, Denmark, Indonesia, the Netherlands, New
Zealand, Singapore, Spain, Thailand, Vietnam, and the US. I'm wondering if
anyone knows of any concerted campaign to bring economic pressure on Suisan via
its foreign subsidiaries?

I also support Sea Shepherd and Greepeace. Each group defends the whales in the way they think they can. Sure Watson is arrogant... he has to be do do this. Good on him.

Love the new webcams.
Excellent work, mates.
Stay warm and stay the course.

The next campaign:
Save the Acrylic Fibers!

Hi Grateful Child, yes i fully understand what you are saying. Loved the quote from Martin Luther King and i agree with everything in there. I know sqirting the cat with a water pistol does not stop it coming back and only saves that one bird, at that one time but isnt that whats been happening down in the Southern Ocean for years -a bit maybe like me standing peacefully in the garden to frighten the cat away and my mum squirting it with a water pistol. We both hope that eventually the cat will give up as it cant get catch a bird either way? Both methods working but both methods not supported by everyone.

I also know that to change anything we need to change the minds of the people, however the minds of the people havnt really changed that much over the past 20 years and im not sure that if Sea Shepherd changed their tactics it would change their minds any quicker. Ultimately i havnt a clue what the answer is but im glad we have GP down there and im also glad we have Sea Shepherd down there.

I am very laid back, do not have a temper and people who know me would say that i am one of the most peaceful people they know - i always try to look at the other perspective and give the benefit of the doubt. However i would be no good on the Espy as my passion and frustration would get the better of me in these circumstances, maybe its people similar to me that are on the Sea Shepherd? I admire the crew of the Espy and think they are doing a fantastic job, I cannot praise them enough. I also cannot critisize the crew of the Sea Shepherd. As for their two members, again i only have press reports to go on but its sure brought the whaling issue to the media's attention hasnt it - some good and some bad.

I also enjoy reading your blogs Grateful Child and your web site is excellent. Take care and you guys on the Espy take care too... we need you safe. From Cath

Hello Bob Orr
Nissui and the other stakeholders of Kyodo Senpaku (who owns the whaling fleet) divested themselves of their shares in 2006 following our corporate campaign against them. In particular we targeted Gorton's in the USA, Sealords in NZ, and Nissui Europe in NL and their Chilean company.

We did this in conjunction with Environmental Investigation Agency
(http://www.eia-international.org/) and Humane Society International
(http://www.hsus.org/). They now have a new corporate campaign on whaling.

Cheers
Iréne on the Esperanza

It is reported that 5 whales have been taken and that Greenpeace is saddened. If this is true, then why are you not returning to the whaling grounds?