Hypocrisy on the high seas? | Home | Life on a floating roller coaster

Besides taxpayers in Japan supporting the whaling programme, many consumers within Japan are also supporting the whaling programme through their purchases of whale meat by-products from the research programmes (I personally fall into both of those categories).

I for one appreciate the effort on the part of the Greenpeace campaigners to try to explain what they are trying to achieve, even though I remain unsure about why Greenpeace believes it is neccessary to achieve it.

Indeed, people here in Japan are almost without exception not starving, yet for this reason it also isn't necessary for New Zealand to export 40,000 tonnes of beef product to Japan each year (not to mention the 300,000 or so tonnes from Australia ). I imagine that the profits received by New Zealand and Australia through their beef exports to Japan are orders of magnitude more than an eventual commercial whaling operation might hope to reap (although the ecological cost of whaling has the potential to be significantly lower).

My impression is that many meat consumers / tax payers in Japan don't understand why whale meat produced by Japanese companies is unacceptable, whereas beef products produced by Australian and New Zealand corporations is. Especially since the desire to resume commercial whaling in international waters is fully in accordance with the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling, which is in force between those 3 nations.

At least, if Greenpeace were calling for a ban on meat exports from Australia and New Zealand to Japan, I and other taxpayers / meat consumers here in Japan could also understand calls for whaling by Japanese companies to be banned as well. Just my two yen.

David,

Judging from your blog it's obvious that you are pro-whaling and nothing that anyone could say would convince you otherwise.
I'd be interested in knowing your connection, if any, to the whaling industry.

I on the other hand, am not a Greenpeace member.
I'm not an animal rights or environmental activist.
I happened upon this webpage from a news article.

I eat beef and seafood..as long as that food is sustainable produced with no undue hardship to the animal.

The difference in my eyes, between whaling and beef production is:
-beef is produced for food
-whales are wild mammals, many of which are endangered

How can you compare beef cattle, which are specifically bred for food in the millions, with wild whales, many of which are endangered ?

I don't support whaling and I get no financial gain from the beef industry. Why would you assume that the average person in New Zealand or Australia would be any different ?

The only reason that Japan is allowed to kill whales for food is due to this absurd RESEARCH legal loophole. I don't think you need to harvest 800+ whales to do research.

Not that a loophole may matter anyhow.
Japanese fishing vessels has a long history of engaging in illegal fishing no matter the catch.

Roy

David some vegetarians and many Japanese would disagree with me but NOT ALL CREATURES ARE CREATED EQUALLY! For example I have no problem with eating yogurt but I do have a problem with eating Elephant, ape, dolphin, human and whale. Killing highly evolved sentient beings is not the same as killing a cow, pig or chicken. I think that the Japanese public like you David should have less love and more education from Greenpeace.

Roy,

My affiliation with the whaling "industry" are about the same as any other person who consumes whale meat here in Tokyo. I live here, pay taxes here, and I eat the odd bit of whale meat from time to time (last evening, in fact). Although I do take a strong interest in where the whale meat comes from and related issues.

The reason Japan supports research programmes is because they have stated aim of making for a resumption of commercial whaling, in accordance with the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling, which as I noted above, is in force between them and nations such as NZ and Australia. While Greenpeace has a problem with commercial whaling for some reason, I have no problem with it in principle, and I think that's the general feeling amongst other people here who also eat whale meat (and indeed various other types of animal-based protein). I do not understand why people who eat animal flesh in places like NZ and Australia do not share the same principles.

You express a view that "whales are endangered". Of course, I agree that sustainable harvests should not be attempted where truly endangered species are concerned (such as certain stocks of gray, right and blue whales, for example). However, the world's leading cetacean scientists recognise that many whale stocks today are recovering (to greater or lesser extents). In the case of the Antarctic minke whale - the primary focus for the Japanese - this species is believed to be the world's most abundant species of baleen whale. It's in full awareness of this reality that I have no problem with the commercial harvest of abundant stocks of whales in accordance with science-based management procedures such as the IWC's Revised Management Procedure (RMP). I also believe that sufficient technology is available today to ensure that appropriate regulation is possible. It is simply a matter of political will as to whether or not commercial whaling occurs (either through consensus, or unilateral decision as we have seen with Norway and Iceland).

You talk about cattles being bred in the millions as food. To me, the life of a cow is worth every bit as much respect as the life of a whale. I do not see the fact that cows being farmed, in contrast to whales being harvested from nature, as a difference of any particular significance, it's just a semantical difference about how you go about obtaining the food. On the contrary, from an environmental perspective, I believe cow farming has a greater negative impacts on the planet than whaling conducted in accordance with the RMP would have (to obtain an equivalent amount of meat). Thus I don't regard farming as being superior to natural harvests. Of course, after years of farming in many areas, human populations are now dependant upon it. This unfortunate reality does not preclude us looking to reduce our reliance on farming through limited, regulated harvests of marine resources in accordance with science-based management procedures. Particularly not when there are people here in Tokyo such as myself who are prepared to get some of our protein intake through eating whale meat.

You also appear to express a view that cows do not suffer undue hardship. Personally, if I were to be born again tomorrow as a cow or a whale, I'd choose to be born again as a wild free whale rather than a farmed cow. I make this decision having visited what was my family's Manawatu dairy farm on numerous occasions during my youth. Of course, I accept that you have a different and equally valid perspective to me. I hope the people of the world can learn to tolerate such differences in views.

Hi Karli for that wonderful article and perspective. I especially liked the 'A message to the Japanese Public' presentation. Totally awesome creative juices flowing there.
It's easy for me, to decide the issue here, ...because I choose to see the suffering of these innocent creatures, ...and that's the only thing that I think should matter to me, ...whether they be whales or cattle. I'm the kind of a person that has made a choice to take that suffering into my heart, and to feel something for that creature, ...or child. Some of you that post in here may feel I'm foolish to think like that, ...or do you think that's really why our ecology is failing, and our wars are never ending, ...because no one really cares, and therefore never sees the suffering of others. What choice do you wish to make, ...needless suffering and insignificance to the real and horrendous mortal attacks these creatures are forced to endure before their completely unnecessary deaths, ...or respect for all living things? Should we really terrorize and brutally kill any innocent creature, ...for our convenience and preference of taste? Please take a moment to view a video I did some years ago to an Anthony Phillips song. If after the video, could you come back here and let me know why you feel I'm wrong to feel the way I do? - http://www.gratefulchild.org/projects/gcweb/gc/html/video/nowwhat.html

Hi John,

I understand that you and some people see a difference between cows and pigs and whales and elephants. However, what I (and I think other whale meat eaters) don't understand is why that is. It seems to me that the groupings of "good for eating" and "too good for eating" (if I may paraphrase) that you have chosen, are very arbitrary.

I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt however, so perhaps you would be so kind as to provide some clarification as to why you have chosen to draw your lines where you have.

I see you refer to whales and elephants as "highly evolved sentient beings". I don't see what is more "highly evolved" about whales and elephants than cows and pigs, and I don't regard cows and pigs as not being sentient. Pigs in particular are often regarded as the brightest animal "in the barnyard" so to speak.

Hi David
As I predicted "some vegetarians and many Japanese would disagree with me"... These arguments can go on and on and we have had them before... http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/10/30/103452/71
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/10/25/194211/41
In the end we must agree to differ as we both will not change our possition. If you do come back as a Whale prehaps then you will understand what is so great about them... Just watch out for the Harpoons!

Regarding the intelligence of a whale, information from seasheperd website...
The Japanese have only one argument to support their position that whales are not intelligent creatures. They look at the brain-body ratio (i.e., the size of the brain compared to body mass). This is the only area where humans score better. The human brain comprises about 2% of the human body mass, whereas the sperm whale's brain comprises only 0.02% of its body mass. However, a very large proportion of a whale's body mass is blubber, which requires no brain power, and this distorts the ratio somewhat. Nevertheless, it is clear that brain size is not a decisive criterion. Hummingbirds have an even higher brain-to-body ratio than humans. Dinosaurs were almost as big as whales with brains the size of walnuts.

It is brain size that makes the difference, and the sperm whale brain is the largest brain to have ever evolved on the planet. It is about 9,000 cubic centimeters and weighs 7.8 kilos or 17 lbs 3 oz. The orca brain is about 5 kilos.

By comparison the human brain is 1300 grams and is about 1300 cubic centimeters.

All mammals from mice to men have three lobes to the brain whereas cetaceans have a fourth lobe. The convulsions on the neo-cortex area of the brain are more pronounced on cetacean brains than on humans.
So overall, the brain of a sperm whale and orca are larger, and more complex than human brains.

However, they don't have technology — and it is technology that humanity uses as the primary indicator of intelligence. We have essentially dismissed non-manipulative intelligences from our definition of intelligence.

A few years ago, Captain Watson had the following conversation with Georg Blitchfield, the leader of the High North Alliance, a pro-whaling lobbying group.

Blitchfield: "But Watson, you say that whales are more intelligent than people. How can you say such a stupid thing? This is stupid, this is crazy this is….."

Captain Watson: "Georg, I happen to measure intelligence by the ability to live in harmony with the natural world. By this criteria, whales are far more intelligent than we are."

Blitchfield: "That is a stupid criteria. By that stupid criteria, you could say cockroaches are smarter than people."

Captain Watson: "Georg, you are beginning to understand what I'm talking about."

Captain Watson was not only saying that intelligence is relative, but that intelligence cannot be placed into categories defined by humans.

Whales are highly social beings and they have a complex form of communication with each other which can only be defined as language. We simply do not understand what those large brains have evolved for, but indeed large brains they have, and large brains suggest that there is a reason and a use for this development.

Nice post, John.

I can see from "previewing" my post that those I quoted runs into my posted remarks, I'm not sure how to correct it but I hope the "[quote] & [/quote]" make it easier.

david:

My impression is that many meat consumers / tax payers in Japan don't understand why whale meat produced by Japanese companies is unacceptable, whereas beef products produced by Australian and New Zealand corporations is. Especially since the desire to resume commercial whaling in international waters is fully in accordance with the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling, which is in force between those 3 nations.
At least, if Greenpeace were calling for a ban on meat exports from Australia and New Zealand to Japan, I and other taxpayers / meat consumers here in Japan could also understand calls for whaling by Japanese companies to be banned as well. Just my two yen.[/blockquote]

David, I'm assuming you're a vegitarian from your post, which was well written, giving no clue to your apparent "dullness". Cattle are breed to produce meat to supply humans food needs and this is metered by "supply & demand". Whales are not breed to keep pace with "supply & demand" elementary isn't it, David?

John:

The Japanese have only one argument to support their position that whales are not intelligent creatures. They look at the brain-body ratio (i.e., the size of the brain compared to body mass).

I would suggest David run like hell else he be a dinner in Japan. :P

I agree though that we shouldn't aim our angry words at the people of Japan but at the government and policy makers there (and even then we shouldn't use anger but reasoning, maybe a little pleading too :) True, people make a market for whale meat by eating it but showing people what is happening to the whale populations they can see for themselves how it is endangering the species and change this behavior, that is my sincere hope. One only need look at American history and the way buffalo and wolves were wiped out in a matter of a few short years. It's so sad that humans sometimes don't/can't look to the 7th generation those before us were so wise.

I am not a vegitarian but a few years ago after reading about veal calves and the horrific, cruel treatment they recieve during their short lives I could not continue eating this meat and I liked the taste of veal very much. I have faith that the Japanese people who do eat whale meat can do the same. :)

Karli:

The expedition itself will have two goals. Firstly to take non-violent, direct action - to put ourselves between the whale and the harpoon - to protect individual whales. This form of peaceful protest has proved effective in the past, helping to save 82 whales during last year's expedition to the Southern Ocean.

Not only do I support Greenpeace for the work they do to help preserve "those without a voice" (human voice, anyway :P ) but also because they are willing to put themselves in danger to do so, thank you Greenpeace. :)

Secondly, to follow another of our organisation's principles of bearing witness. To show people the reality of the Japanese government's whaling programme in the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary, raising awareness - particularly in the Japanese public - of what that actually involves.

The thing I love about Greenpeace is that they always let the other side express a point of view. In this case I am not entirely against seafaring folk hunting sea creatures in a way that does not threaten a species with extinction (Cod! Hoovering up the sea bed, etc.). Also I am not vegetarian by choice : wild or home-reared meat, no problem, Bernard Mathews turkey no way. Let's pick our battles, not holes in each other.

Recently seen from the news of the Whale killing and I was very angry to the killer who keeps hunting for animal for cash, Knowing GP has confronted the vessel since many years ago and also talked to the trader. The conflicts may be forever only if the whale product make cash. The hunter/trader will just close their ears.

KNowing whale can hear and have strong hearing sense. Whale also has their language, can we do something like the HIGH FREQUENCY RADIATOR to scare away the whale whenever there is whale hunt nearby ? We may not need to confront the vessel whc is quite dangerous.
I am sure the professionals in the Greenpeace must know the commnunications method in between the whales.

Dear Karli,
I have a few questions about whaling.

1) May I have the argument from our side as well as Japan's point of view?
2)How would you answer someone who asks why you should feel worse about whaling than fishing? or why whaling is worse than fishing?

I can only say that I am very happy that this hunt came to an end. Instead of fight ask God to make Japanese people undertsand what we want to say: PLEASE LET THEM LIVE IN PEACE !!!!