brrrr - looks cold - go well up there!

Thank you for braving the elements to protect this ancient forest and support the Sami in protecting their traditional culture and livelihood. Your efforts will encourage others to take action.

Here in the U.S., we will demand that companies stop buying wood fiber derived from Metsähallitus's logging operations in areas mapped by the Inari reindeer herding co-operatives and Nellim sub-group.

Stay warm & strong.

Thanks for what you do; I hope, no Im sure that you can stop the destructive logging and save this beautifull and important forests !

EVERY FOREST IS A GIFT BY NATURE..WE SHOULD PROTECT IT AND NOT DESTROY IT..THANKS FOR BEING THERE AND PROTECTING..GO ON!!

your Green peace activists'endeavor in the horrible cold weather to moniter and deter logging
may be one of the most admirable protest for the preservation of Finish primeval forest envied from all of the world and safegurd of native's inhabitant right in Sami reindeer herding area.
I hope your trails could make Finish goverment and logging companies to be aware of the preciousness of virgin forests and reindeer livelihood. Take care more of your health.

It's just fine to see that even in Inari actions are taken to protect the beautiful environment of northern forest.
I do hope you built a sauna and I wish you will defeat those who don't respect the sami culture and inheritage.

G

Hi gang,
My name is Steve Wiggs and I have been working with GP for going on 16 years now. I have had the privlige to work on forest actions from British Columbia to North Carolina and two actions above the Artic Circle in Lappland in Sweden. (sorry never could spell Laapland right!)
To be up there is an honor, as you can see. The issues have been the same for years.
This year GP int. has chosen it to spotlight.
Make it no dought in your minds that you are on the cutting edge of enviromental activity.
For years we have said among our selves, it is a war going on in the woods.
If you find yourself in a situation cofronting loggers be cool. Talk allot but if they get agressive back way away.
The Sámi are a cool bunch of folk. Be carefull with there trust and do not let them down.
Enjoy where you are, do good work and stay warm.
Please feel free to drop me a line.

Love & Hugs, Steve Wiggs

Hi all,

This is Emma sending a big hello to all my finish brave friends. I miss you guys. My thoughts are with you all, I know what it is like... And to Pettan: I'm always proud.

Thank you for actions here in Lapland :(
Here is lot of people who don't wont you to be here. Your demandings are causing lot of employment. Many sami people work also in Metsähallitus. More than one thousand people have signed an address against Greenpeace actions in Inari.

Jarno, Ivalo

p.s. I have also reindeers.

Thank you so much for facing the harsh conditions of the north and standing up for what you believe in. As a Canadian living in Northern Manitoba, I know how very cold it can get! You are doing great things, thank you!

P.S.: Time to whip out the heavy artillery- Santa Clause!

Dear Campaigners,

have you had the opportunitty to sample the delicious souvas ( rein deer steak) and other traditional Sami delicacies?

Wish I was there instead of here sweating away on the other side.

Roger Melbourne Australia

I agree with Mandy who would like to harm Santa's reindeer?

I have written an opinion article about it see www.onlineopinion.com.au »

Regards,

From Roger a Laplander on the other side

it's strange how i never know what to say to good people. but i'm gonna try and say: KEEP IT GOING, U R DOING EARTH A FAVOUR!
stay warm 'n' strong ok? your action will deffinitely encourage others to do the same. thank you!
adriana (Romania)

Greenpeace go home ! Nobody want´s you here. There is more work to do in your own countries.

Jukka,

what would you propose that we should then do with our 16,000 Finnish supporters and 11 Finnish workers? Where should we go and what shall we do there? And what would you propose for Inari reindeer herders? Where should they move once their forests have been trashed by Metsähallitus logging? Yours, Matti Liimatainen

Let me start by saying that I have owned reindeers on the affected area, and that I see no reason for te actions that GP is taking. All that GP is causing is weakening a very fragile economy in Inari. Finland has probably the best maintained forests in the world, and the unlike what the GP tries to show Metsahallitus is not going to cut down the forest and leave open lands. As is true anytime in Finalnd when there are loggin activity the forrests will be maintained in good health, and loggin is done only to the extend that the forest can be grown back. Finland as whole has maintaided a balance in its loggin and will never allow any more forest to be cut down than what will be grown back at any given year. Aside from GP getting involved and messing everything up in the northern Finland there has been no change in terms of Sami people not being able to get a living of their traditional livelihood. The Sami people are the ones thriving in Inari. Rememebr that the reindeer are herded so they can be sloughtered and then the meat sold for profit. The people behind this campaign are doing it simply for financial benefit, and so they can be better off in expense of other economic areas.

So it is about high time for GP to get out of Inari as you are not welcome.

Hey!
How 're things goin'? I've arrived saturday in Amsterdam... and yes i miss the beautiffull forrest and all you guys already...
i just want to say: keep on goin' youre on the right way. The forrest and the sami needs all the help they can get!

greetzz

Martijn Nije

"TO REACH A MILLION, BEGINS WITH ONE"
Never ever EVER forget this!
Fiona- Melbourne Australia

Sigh, This time I have cause to disapprove what GP is doing here in Lapland. Yes, I live here and know the background better for that reason. There is nothing brave to come here and tell lies about how forestry is handled here. Forests are almost the only natural resources that we have. It would be foolish to mishandle them. Actually more than 20 % of forests are protected. And that is a plenty. Look at the map!

There is more reindeer here than people. Perhaps too many. Price of meat becomes too low and more reindeer are needed to sustain families. Forests cannot support that many. Its not an easy question. You shouldn't take side against other, but try to resolve the actual problem. The problem is that people cannot make their livelyhood. No job ---> no money. We cannot incease reindeers there has to be something else.

This what you do now just increases unemployment and misery. I would say that we here live more in harmony with nature than almost any other people in whole Europe! I'm angry that you come here to say that we don't.

Looking forward to come and help in two weeks, keep up the good work! Martijn en Jetske: leuk jullie weblog!!! Kan ik me fijn mee voorbereiden :-)

Marielle

Hi Olli, Ulvar, Jarmo and others! Good work. Im following the work on www and on sami TV news that are broadcast in whole Norway. There have been at least 3 stories there. Check this out: www.sosvillmark.no, remember to see the movie with sound, and youll get a good laugh! Yours Rein Midteng, Norway

Hi Jarno and all Finns that are against this Greenpeace action,

I'm Ann from Sweden and I have just read an article in the Finnish newspaper HUFVUDSTADSBLADET regarding the Greenpeace action in Upper Lapland.

This paper is not in the least negative about the GP action! Actually the paper seems to support GP and they also point out how important reindeer herding is to Samis.

Without reindeer herding Sami culture and language will die out.

Check the article here:

http://www.hbl.fi/cgi-bin/mediaweb?Newsp=hbl&Date=050302&Depa=inrikes&Story=07434634.txt&Model=juttu.html

Hi! very interesting blog. I wonder if you considered producing audio, podcasts. I have been producing the blog for the environmental program on Air America, EcoTalk and maybe Betsy could air an interview or something?
You could also have some audio on the blog (I am a fan of webradio, if possible in different languages (including French if you have French speakers): the more languages the more potential impact. At this point I don't have time for a translation but maybe some French speaking GP members could do that?
Other possibility: skype.
Keep up your good work.
Ph
www.blogvert.org

Keep strong and keep on!

"Without reindeer herding Sami culture and language will die out."

That's the biggest lie I've heard for a while. Greenpeace propaganda seems to be dangerous.

Greetings,
an indigenous sámi person.

What kind of cloud castles you Greenpeace people are living in! First I find very offending that you use the Sámi in your distorted worldwide propaganda, like you had the support of a whole nation behind you.

It usually has been easy to get sympathy for fighting against "the big evil companies". But it doesn't seem like the majority of local people or even the Sámi people support you now at all.

Actually they are making a petition that already 3000 people (including me of course) have signed, demanding you to leave Lapland.
http://www.inari.fi/ajankoht/tiedote.htm

Ordinary people seem already so angry, that they will probably burn your Forest Station down soon.

Greetings,
an indigenous Sámi
(thankfully I live a little more to the north from there. no fir-trees, no terrible forest war.)

"What would you propose that we should then do with our 16 000 Finnish supporters and 11 Finnish workers?"

Yes Matti, I understand that you have to make up out of nothing these kind of "enviroment crimes" so you can get more money and support for your outrageous organization.

Wasn't it in the late-90's when Greenpeace Finland (Suomen Greenpeace) was shut down because of lack of money and support in Finland? I'm not wondering why there wasn't enough support.
http://www.kaapeli.fi/hypermail/suomis-list/0083.html

To EinoKalevi:
If you are saying that reindeer herding isn´t important to Sami culture... Then you are lieying!!! Reindeer herding plays a BIG PART in Sami culture...
ofcourse there is much more to Sami culture than that but still!!!
Jalla bat don leat go it diede sami kultuvra birra MAITEGE!!!!!!!!!!!!
dalle ii galgga lohkat maitege jus ii diede maitege!!! amma nu???

Just to say that it's true that the locals are getting really pissed off with GP and your image is going down the sink here in Inari. Most of the locals feel that they can solve and handle these problems of their own by negociating and you people are just encouraging people taking sides and leading the local community into an unnecessary and unfortunate war. I know it's not your purpose but it's something that can't be avoided now that you're here. You guys should take responsibily of your actions and know better.
You're taking an advantage of the Sami people and spreading an untruthful picture of them all around the world. Most reindeer herders here also feel strongly against your actions and feel ashamed to be drawn into this dirt.
Please, leave. Please, understand. We will have to deal with these things long after you're gone "saving the world" somewhere else and
try to balance out these social ties in our community again.

"If you are saying that reindeer herding isn´t important to Sami culture... Then you are lieying!!!"

Now I didn't say so. But to say that Sámi culture and language would die without reindeer heirding, is clearly wrongful. Even if all the reindeers disappeared form the world just now, Sámi culture and language wouldn't die. Sámi culture overall is already not so much linked to reindeer heirding than it used to be.

Sámi people used to live in southern Finland, hunting, fishing and collecting, before reindeers came along. Also many Sámi in Norway, near Inarinjärvi, and rivers like Teno have traditionally practiced fishing. And even had cows before it was economically impossible.

Good luck
Portugal

Well Greenpeace, did you have fun with the loggers yesterday? :)

http://www.forest.fi/smyforest/foresteng.nsf/tiedotteetlookup/5F32B71886F93F58C2256FC70052F580

Ofcourse there is much much more to Sami culture than only reindeer herding... but most of the Sami people have reindeers of their own...
and you can't say that language wouldn't die at least partly!!! there are so many Sami words connected to reindeer herding that would surely disappear if reindeer herding did no longer exist!!!
clearly EinoKalevi you are not a Sami!!! tending reindeer in southern parts of reindeer herding area in Finland is different than tending them according to the sami style!!! and that is a part of culture!
Like in norway and sweden you have to be a sami to herd and own reindeers..
you clearly don´t understand that everything is linked together; if you take one part of sami culture out, the other parts will suffer ---> where to get materials for traditional arts and crafts if there were no reindeer?

How long you have to do something that it will become tradition?
If we look 100 years back in time, the sami culture and reindeer herding was quite different. I'm not against reindeer herding or sami culture, but sometimes you have to do something in new way.

Good question Jarno, it's a question I often wonder myself - even history, in the modern sense, is quite a new concept.

But if you look back 100 years, logging was quite different too - the concept of industry was relatively new, and there were no chainsaws or harvesters. Reindeer herding, in the sense of relatively tame reindeer, is several hundred yearss old.

Tradition is usually defined as the act of how elements of a culture are handed down through generations. This isn't to say that that all aspects, or the appearance, of these elements stays constant. Like everything, there is constant change. Even in Sámi prehistory, there was constant change. Since industrialisation in the 19th century, much of the world has changed.

Japan for instance, was a feudal nation until industrialisation arrived. Now it's a high-tech culture. The concept of a middle class didn't exist in Europe until industrialisation.

Since then, change has accelerated - and this has had influence on reindeer herding and Sámi.

I don't think any of us want to 'freeze' reindeer herding or Sámi culture in some kind of idyllic Disney timewarp, but rather recognise the integral aspects of a traditional way of life.

And then there's the forest itself...

I think it's very important to save the Sami culture and language, and the best way to save it seems to keep the reindeer herding culture alive for the new generations.

How many small cultures and languages haven't been lost in the tundra region?

All the world have a responsibility to keep the Sami culture alive!

Ann

The best way to keep reindeer herding alive is getting reindeer meat price much higher than what it is now. Even if all forests are protected there will be lot of sami people and other reindeer herders who will stop reindeer herding. Nowdays there are not so many people who live only reindeer herding. They have to do also other works to be alive. Some of them are loggin wood. Or someones get their money in the social service.

Hi Jarno,
I don't exactly understand your comment on reindeer meat... do you say it's too cheap?

In Sweden reindeer meat is expensive, it's a delicacy and MUCH more expensive than pork and beef...

Ann

Yes reindeer meat is also expensive also here in Finland, but what reindeer herder get of that is very little. Year by year big companys who buy reindeer meat pay less and less. But price in stores is always same, maybe even higher.

Problem is that big buyers know that every year they can get more meat than what they need. Every reindeer owner have to kill allmost every calves every year, because there are too much reindeers.

So, big buyers can say what they want to pay and nobody cannot do anything for that.

One thing what brings reindeer meat price also down is reindeer meat what have been brought from Russia.

Few years ago lot of finnish reindeer owners sold meat to Norway, but now it is impossible. Reason is that Norway want to protect their own reindeer meat price in their markets.

Way to go up there!
Say Hi to Blather, the little furry fella!

Dear Activists,

I hope you will have succes at talking to the local people that there are ways to save the remaining ancient forest and have employment for local people.
Today in the Hague dutch activists put a forest rescue station in front of the Finnish embassy. This action was shown on the dutch news. Qwe will look in the papaers tomorrow to see if the story will be reported.
International attention to what the Finnish government is allowing to happen in Finland should help with saving these forests.
Dutch volunteers are outside photocopying shops and are talking to paper producers to use paper without ancient forest in it.

I wish you much succes in the coming weeks up there, I read the weblogs with great interest and I hope to join you in the middle of april!

Liesbeth van Tongeren

Greenpeace is tegen genetische manipulatie van voedsel, Moore is voor. Greenpeace is tegen kweekvis, Moore voor. Greenpeace is tegen houtkap, Moore voor. 'Ze zijn overal tegen en bestrijden dat bijna religieus. Greenpeace is een jihad-beweging, ze zien zichzelf als de good guys en onze samenleving als vijand.'

Aan het begin van de jaren zeventig ontstond Greenpeace als een lokale Canadese actiegroep tegen Amerikaanse kernproeven in Alaska. Patrick Moore was er vanaf het allereerste moment bij en groeide mee toen de Gideonsbende een wereldmacht werd. 'Fantastisch. We voelden ons astronauten. We deden dingen die nog nooit eerder waren gedaan. We gingen naar testgebieden voor kernproeven, voor harpoenen zitten, voor supertankers varen. En het lukte nog ook. President Nixon schrapte de kernproeven in Alaska!' Met de eerste boottocht gingen twaalf actievoerders mee, onder wie Patrick Moore. 'We zagen er als een groep hippies uit, maar waren professionals. De had bijvoorbeeld een doctoraat in ecologie.'

De 57-jarige Patrick Moore ziet er al lang niet meer uit als een hippie. Hij is zijn wilde haren grotendeels kwijt, heeft een tweede huis in Mexico en draagt zelfs af en toe een stropdas - die hij overigens af doet wanneer hij poseert. En hij heeft zijn buik vol van de club die hij heeft opgericht. 'Ik heb het helemaal gehad met Greenpeace. Ik heb geen enkel respect meer voor die organisatie.'

Gletsjers

Noem een strijdpunt van Greenpeace en tien tegen een dat Patrick Moore het er niet mee eens is. Zo maakt Greenpeace zich er druk over dat de gletsjers zouden verdwijnen. Moore: 'Kom op. we hebben het over ijs! Het is heel wel denkbaar dat het voor de natuur veel beter is als er wat minder ijs op de planeet is. En ik denk ook niet dat het heel goed voor de aandelenmarkten is als een groot deel van Europa en Noord-Amerika net als vroeger onder het ijs verdwijnt.'

De opwarming van het klimaat is sowieso niet iets waar hij wakker van ligt. 'Ik was twee weken geleden in Newfoundland en vertelde daar dat voor koude streken als Labrador en Newfoundland een beetje opwarming helemaal niet slecht is. Misschien dat ze daar eindelijk eens wat anders dan aardappelen kunnen verbouwen. Honderden miljoenen hectare waar je door de kou helemaal niets aan hebt. Het is toch niet slecht als je daar in de toekomst landbouw op kunt bedrijven?'

De actie van Greenpeace tegen het dumpen van het Brent Spar-olieplatform in 1995? 'Een belachelijke actie. De Brent Spar was beton plus staal en dat kun je rustig in de oceaan dumpen. Greenpeace heeft dat zelf ook gedaan met het schip de Rainbow Warrior. Daarmee krijg je een kunstmatig rif dat heel goed is voor het leven in zee.'

Kernenergie? 'Ik kijk daar tegenwoordig anders tegenaan. Er zijn meer dan zeshonderd kerncentrales in de wereld. Die doen het goed. Tsjernobyl was de uitzondering die de regel bevestigt dat kernenergie veilig is. Bovendien is er in de verste verte niet genoeg groene stroom op aarde om zowel elektriciteit te produceren als straks, wanneer de benzine op is, waterstof te maken voor alle auto's en vrachtwagens. Dat zal alleen maar met kernenergie kunnen.'

Milieuvervuiling? 'De grote milieuproblemen zijn opgelost. De lucht in Londen bijvoorbeeld is nu schoner dan in vijfhonderd jaar. Twintig jaar geleden hadden we in Vancouver in de herfst, als de zeewind weg viel, enorme smog. Weken achter elkaar kon je nauwelijks met de auto rijden, je zag geen hand voor ogen. Dat is allemaal weg. De lucht is weer schoon.'

Kunstmest? 'Zonder kunstmest zouden twee miljard mensen sterven. Twee miljard! En daar verzet de milieubeweging zich tegen, omdat het chemisch zou zijn. Flauwekul, de drie bestanddelen ervan - ammoniak, fosfaat en kalium - komen uit de lucht en de zee.'

Genetische manipulatie van voedsel? 'Daar ben ik voor. De grootste schade die we de aarde aandoen, is ontbossing van de tropen. Greenpeace zegt dat de multinationale ondernemingen dat doen, maar het is vanwege de landbouw dat die bossen verdwijnen. En dus moet de productiviteit van de landbouw in de Derde Wereld omhoog, onder meer met genetische manipulatie.'

In 1982 hoorde Patrick Moore op een conferentie in Nairobi voor het eerst het begrip 'duurzaamheid'. 'Ik kreeg hetzelfde gevoel als toen ik op de universiteit ecologie ontdekte. Een verbinding tussen natuurwetenschap en het mysterie van het leven. Ik begreep dat via duurzame ontwikkeling de milieuwaarden die wij bij Greenpeace hadden ontwikkeld, konden worden gecombineerd met sociale en economische prioriteiten. Greenpeace definieert het milieu als alles op de mensen na. Duurzame ontwikkeling is milieu plus mensen.'

Duurzame ontwikkeling was ook de reden waarom Moore in 1986 bij Greenpeace wegging. 'Ik was vijftien jaar tegen van alles en nog wat geweest, ik wilde nu eens een keer ergens vóór zijn. Van confrontatie naar consensus. Nadenken hoe we op een milieuvriendelijke manier met zes miljard mensen of meer op de planeet kunnen leven. De activisten waren daar tegen. Ze vonden dat een compromis. Sleeping with the enemy, heulen met de vijand. Ze zeiden: mensen zijn slecht voor het milieu.'

Moore groeide op in een dorpje op Vancouver Island, in het westen van Canada, aan de Stille Oceaan. De vader van zijn moeder en diens broers waren zalmvissers. 'Ik wist dus het een en ander van zalm af en begon over het kweken van zalm te lezen. Toen dacht ik: dat is het, daar was ik naar op zoek. Dit is duurzame ontwikkeling. 'Ik zei tegen mijn collega's bij Greenpeace: jongens, we zijn tegen het doden van walvissen, tegen het doden van zeehonden, tegen het doden van dolfijnen, we zijn tegen sleepnetten, tegen boomkorren. We zijn eigenlijk tegen elke manier om voedsel uit de
oceaan te halen. Waarom steunen we dan geen duurzame vis-kweek? Waarom definiëren we niet hoe dat zou moeten en worden daar zelfde aanvoerders in? Er viel niet over te praten. Toen ben ik weggegaan. Als je ook tegen het kweken van vis bent, waar ben je dan in hemelsnaam vóór?'

Moore begon in Canada een zalmkwekerij die per jaar driehonderdduizend zalmen produceerde en deed dat zeven jaar lang. 'Viskweek is een ideale manier om eiwitten te produceren. Veel beter dan het kweken van vlees via vee. Vissen zijn koudbloedig en hoeven zich niet warm te houden. Ook hoeven ze geen energie te verspillen om de zwaartekracht tegen te gaan. Ze maken dus veel efficiënter vlees dan kippen en varkens. Nu al komt eenderde van al het zeevoedsel uit viskweek. Die kan in de toekomst groeien en dat is goed.
'In de eerste plaats omdat het kweken de druk afhaalt van de wilde populaties, bijvoorbeeld wilde zalm. In de tweede plaats schept het banen in afgelegen kustgebieden. Vervolgens verbetert het ook nog eens onze gezondheid. Het is dus goed voor de natuur, voor de economie en voor onze gezondheid.'

Immense voordelen

Maar de volksbeweging die Moore had helpen oprichten en waaruit hij voortkwam, keerde zich tegen hem. 'Milieugroepen hebben in het deel van Canada waar ik vandaan kom, British Columbia, reclame gemaakt voor wilde zalm in plaats van kweek-zalm. Ze zeggen dat er in kweekzalm meer verontreiniging zit dan in wilde zalm, maar dat klopt niet. Nu serveren tal van restaurants in British Columbia wilde zalm. Nou, dat is een verstandige aanpak om de wilde zalm te redden, zeg.

'Toen ze daarop werden aangevallen, zeiden ze: wel, het is beter om helemaal geen zalm te eten. Met andere woorden, krijg maar een hartaanval. De voordelen van het eten van de omega-3-vetzuren die in vette vissen zoals zalm zitten, zijn immers immens.'

In 1991 kwam de tweede aanvaring met zijn oude club. Moore had een milieuadviesbureau opgericht, Greenspirit, en ging de Canadese bosbouwindustrie adviseren. 'Ik zat in een regeringscommissie voor economie en ecologie, en werd gevraagd om mee te denken over de toekomst van de houtkap in Canada. Ik hielp die bedrijven om duurzaam ondernemen in te voeren. Wat is daartegen? Maar Greenpeace zag dat als verraad. Waar slaat dat op? Ik heb destijds tegen het testen van waterstofbommen gevochten. Ik pleit toch niet voor het hervatten van die tests?'

Voor Moore was het juist een logische stap, terug naar zijn wortels. 'Ik groeide op in een dorp waar zowel werd gevist als hout gekapt. Mijn vader velde bomen, mijn opa was visser. Door die jeugd was ik ervan overtuigd geraakt dat een mens in en van de natuur kon leven en tegelijkertijd verantwoord met die natuur kon omgaan.'

De bosbouw, althans in de westerse wereld, is daar volgens Moore een schoolvoorbeeld van. 'Er is in Noord-Amerika evenveel bos als honderd jaar geleden. Er is in Europa zelfs driemaal zoveel bos als honderd jaar geleden.'

Moore werkt met Greenspirit samen met twee Amerikaanse bedrijven op het gebied van biotechnologie. Het ene bedrijf probeert bomen en planten meer stikstof uit de lucht te laten opnemen zodat ze beter groeien. Het andere project beoogt om sojabonen meer omega-3-vetzuren (die vis zo gezond maken) te laten maken. 'Daarmee zou je viskweek nog duurzamer kunnen maken. Dan kunnen we de vissen planten voeren in plaats van ansjovis en horsmakreel.'

Oesters

De Zeeuwse oesters in het Maastrichtse restaurant bevallen goed. Bij het hoofdgerecht, biefstuk, wil Moore geen aardappelen (de lange arm van dokter Atkins), maar laat zich de Chiroubles, een rode Beaujolais-wijn, goed smaken.
Terwijl hij een stukje vlees wegspoelt, verdedigt hij zich tegen de aantijging dat hij zijn ziel zou hebben verkocht toen hij voor de industrie ging werken. 'Okay, ik neem af en toe geld van de industrie aan. Wat is daar mis mee? Het is zonde dat het woord industrie een negatieve klank heeft. Het staat in het Engels, industriousness, voor vlijtigheid. Ik geloof in hard werken. Bovendien, alles om ons heen is door de industrie gemaakt, niet door kaboutertjes. Hoe kun je dan tegen de industrie zijn?'

Moore heeft Greenpeace altijd beschouwd als een soort schoonmaakploeg:
'Mensen die de handen uit de mouwen wilden steken op het moment dat er iets moest gebeuren.' Toen de milieuvervuiling uit de jaren zestig en zeventig was opgeruimd, hief de milieubeweging zich echter niet op maar verzon andere thema's. 'Dat was slim. Ze hebben nu banen voor het leven. Ze kiezen bovendien strijdpunten die ze nooit kunnen winnen. Op die manier kunnen ze eeuwig campagne voeren. Zo bereiken ze duurzaamheid voor hun eigen campagnes.'

Maar de echte duurzaamheid, het compromis tussen mens en milieu, wordt door de milieubeweging juist belemmerd. 'Ze zijn tegen viskweek, bosbouw en landbouw. Dat zijn nu net die drie sectoren waar de mensheid al eeuwenlang in staat is om op een duurzame, fatsoenlijke manier met de aarde om te gaan.' Greenpeace was aanvankelijk voor het milieu (vandaar green, groen) en tegen atoom-proeven, dus voor de vrede (peace). 'We zagen de nucleaire holocaust als een schrikbeeld, waarbij zowel de mensheid als de planeet zou worden vernietigd.'

In het begin ging het Greenpeace dus ook om de mens. Dat is voorbij, meent Patrick Moore. 'Greenpeace is zijn humanitaire wortels kwijt.' Het voorbeeld daarvan is het verzet van Greenpeace tegen gouden rijst, een door de Zwitserse hoogleraar Ingo Potrykus ontwikkelde genetisch gemanipuleerde rijst-soort waarin vitamine A zit en die onder meer gericht is tegen de blindheid in de Derde Wereld. Die is namelijk het gevolg van een gebrek aan vitamine A. Het verzet van Greenpeace tegen deze vorm van genvoedsel - Frankenstein-voedsel noemt de milieubeweging het - verleidde Moore tot de uitspraak: Greenpeace heeft liever blinde kinderen dan genetisch gemanipuleerde rijst.

'Als Greenpeace tegen gouden rijst vecht, vecht het tegen mensen. Met gouden rijst kunnen miljoenen mensen in de Derde Wereld worden geholpen.'
Volgens hem liegt Greenpeace ook om gouden rijst zwart te maken. 'Ze zeggen bijvoorbeeld dat gouden rijst niet helpt, omdat je er dagelijks 9 kilo van zou moeten eten om genoeg vitamine A binnen te krijgen. Ze haalden daar zelfs The New York Times mee. In werkelijkheid krijg je met 100 gram rijst 50 procent van je vitamine A-behoefte binnen. Dat vertelde Ingo Potrykus, de uitvinder van de gouden rijst, me onlangs. En als het om wetenschap gaat, geloof ik hem eerder dan Greenpeace.

'Onlangs sprak ik met iemand van Greenpeace en ik zei: als jullie vinden dat er niet genoeg vitamine A in gouden rijst zit, waarom geven jullie dan niet een beetje van al die miljoenen dollars van jullie aan Ingo, zodat hij een nog betere versie van gouden rijst kan maken? In plaats daarvan proberen ze Potrykus en zijn humanitaire project in diskrediet te brengen.'

Moore wil zich er niet over uitlaten of de milieubeweging doelbewust verkeerde informatie verschaft. 'Ik twijfel nooit aan de motieven van mensen. Dat is karaktermoord. Dus denk ik dat ze misleid zijn, verkeerd geïnformeerd. Daarbij komt dat de strijd van de milieubeweging religieuze kenmerken heeft gekregen. Een jihad-element. Ik geloof dat veel mensen binnen de milieubeweging werkelijk vinden dat de westerse beschaving kwaadaardig is. En zoals het wel vaker met zeloten gaat, redeneren ze dat zij de uitverkorenen zijn, de goodguys.

'Bovendien, in het begin waren we bij Greenpeace optimistisch. Dat is voorbij. Greenpeace is overal tegen en uiterst pessimistisch, negatief. Daarom is ook de splitsing ontstaan. De pessimisten hebben gewonnen, optimisten zoals ik hebben de milieubeweging verlaten.

'Er is genoeg reden om optimistisch te zijn. De mens wordt voortdurend ouder, we hebben de vervuiling van het water en de lucht aangepakt, elk voorjaar zitten er weer blaadjes aan de bomen, het leven is toch prachtig? Maar dat kun je niet tegen iemand van de milieubeweging zeggen, die verklaart je voor gek.'

Hello everybody,

Seems to me this discussion is leading away from the main issue here: the trees.
Nature needs about 200 to 300 years to grow a tree of 30 cm diameter up in Northern Finland, the more northern, the more years. Obviously the replanting programme that indeed does work in more southern regions of Finland, won't work here. Once those old and very old trees are gone, even our childrens children will not see their likes again.

To reindeer or not to reindeer is not the question. The question is: has mankind the right to destroy Mother Earths (other) children? Not only those trees, although each of the big ones is a nature reserve in itself. Also the wildlife other than reindeer that depends on those forests is at stake here.

All over the world ancient forests are disappearing rapidly, due to human economics. We're only beginning to see the results of this destruction. Polluted rivers, less fish, landslides, erosion... and then i'm not even mentioning the fact that forests and individual trees form a world wide network, they're all interrelated. (Like everything on this planet, but that is another discussion entirely ;-) )
The point is that by logging old trees in Finland, the whole earth suffers.

Mother Earth, who feeds, warms and clothes us all, deserves better than this!

My regards and true respect to both pro and contra GP's, but above all, my respect to those ages old trees themselves. May they thrive forever.

Is Greenpeace represented in the negotiations that are taking place in Ivalo at the moment? Are there any results from those negotiations?

Eino - yes we are represented. It's just three o'clock now, so it's still actually taking place.

Hi Petteri and all you other guys,

Keep ut the good work and make us proud. I envy you very much and hoped that I could join you.

Yours sincerely,

Claes Book (agricultural consultant, India)

Metsähallitus has reported the illegal forest station to the local police. Investigation will probably last long though. Do you have chains with you, so you can tie yourself to pine trees if things get hectic?

I wish a Happy Easter to everybody at Inari and I leave this message for my dear friend Carla Cioffi from Italy.

Ciao Carletta!
Ben arrivata al polo!
Altro che foto con il cellulare, spero ti sia portata una macchina fotografica vera!
Buona Pasqua e un caldo e sintaticamente pelo abbraccio dalla laugna!
Camilla

You know, I really don't know what to think anymore...on one side we have greenpeace supporters and on the other side the people that want them gone (understandable because of economic purposes). If this is a matter of protecting forest to be destroyed for the sake of getting raw material for companies like StoraEnso, than I totally support this cause! But if it is a case of taking care of the forest (Finland has probably the best maintained forests in the world) which are a problem for the reindeer and sami people, than I really don't understand what GP is doing there.
To me reindeer and Sami aren't even the issue...for me it's just that Forest should be maintained and protected for there is to little on this planet anyway! so which is it?

Eino - I doubt it will come to chaining ourselves to anything!

Don - I'm not sure I understand your point - but despite what may be reported in some parts of the media, we're here working with the Sami Reindeer herders, and other groups within the Sami community.

It's simple really - the reindeer herders want to preserve the forests - and so do we. The Sami right to their reindeer herding livelihood has been ignored for years. Until now.

Ciao Carla! Non ti invidio il clima ma certamente il coraggio! :)
Attendo i tuoi racconti e le foto.
Un abbraccio,

Francesca

Just some questions to ask yourselves
and I hope you already have:

How much land there is already protected in upper
lappland and how much of it is forest?

How much land is protected in other europe?

How much land is used into logging in upper
lappland? How much of this area is cut in one year
and how much of this area is just beautiful
forest?

How much of reindeers yearly nutrition comes from
"luppo"?

In what kind of forest does lichen (jäkälä) grow
better, in a well tended forest or in no tended
("old forest")?

Which has spoiled more reindeer grazing lands, too
big reindeer herds or cutting of forest?

Does reindeer owners have also other motives to
try to protect the forest than saving reindeer
grazing land?

Does Greenpeace have also other motives to try to
protect the forest than saving reindeer grazing
land?

What animals or plants are endangered in lappland
if now planned cutting forest are not protected?

Do you think that based on information Greenpeace
has given (for example in its web-page) people can
make objective image of current situation in
lappland?

Does people from other parts of europe know what
looks like "old forest" and what looks like tended
forest?
How long in tended forest "cycle" the forest looks
like clear cutted?
Is there any other means than clear cutting used
in upper lappland?
How sensible is the confrontation between clear
cutted and "old" forest in pictures on your
website?

Are finnish people generaly more aware of environment issues than in other countries?

If Greenpeace would be wrong in some questions,
could it ever admit this as organisation?

Hi all - just a quick message. If you're going to post a list of questions or another complex message - please ensure that you post a working email address so that we can get in touch with you with regard to any questions, etc.

- Dave

The work you are doing is of such value...the traditions of indiginous people once lost is lost forever and we should be valuing their knowledge and wisdom, not stripping away their heritage. Great job!! Tanya

Thank you, for all that you're doing in Lapland. We must, as writer Aldo Leopold wrote, understand that nature is a community and not merely economic opportunities (waiting for the hand of man) to take.

What you're doing is as important as any, nay, more important than most human endeavors. If I knew how to join you, I would. Thank you and please, please, continue in your critical work.

just want to thank all of you. i appreciate what you are doing for this planet.

Greenpeace strongly exaggerates the meaning of forests to the reindeer heirding. Most problems of reindeer heirding are not because of logging. Most importantly, there have just been too many reindeers, and that's why there's not enough food on the ground. "Traditional" reindeer heirding is quite different what it used to be, and has already been for some time now.

Reindeer heirding has the same problems even there where is no logging at all!

Horsetail lichen is surely not the most important winter food for reindeer. Reindeers can dig through heavy snow to find food (picture). If there isn't lichen, reindeers can eat other growing things too.
http://www.veikkovasama.net/poro_kaivaa.htm

The amount of horsetail lichen in forests is exaggerated by Greenpeace. Reindeers can get only a small portion of it from the big trees. In many reindeer forests there even isn't so much lichen in the trees.

Reindeer heirding is dependent from forests, although not in the way Greenpeace would want. Vehicles, snow scooters and feeding the overcrowded reindeer population are expensive things to do, so reindeer heirders get extra money by _logging their own forests_, or they get profits from the loggings of collective forests.

For the reindeer heirders, offence is the best defense. They invent all kinds of excuses for their problems, when the real reason is modern reindeer heirding itself (ex. too many reindeers), and the free-market economy, where productivity is important and the competition is hard. Of course it's sad that reindeer heirding has problems, but I don't think these kind of Greenpeace's operations only against logging will help it in a long run. Because there are so many other reasons.

All information from Greenpeace seems to be carefully planned propaganda. Almost half of the forests in northern Lapland are already protected. Forests would need much more protection in the southern Finland, but in Inari Greenpeace can use Sámi people in its international propaganda very effectively, because in rest of Europe and the world no-one knows much about the real problems of reindeer heirding and what are the causes for the situation overall in Lapland. And of course in this war of propaganda and blackmailing, maybe Greenpeace can finally defeat it's long-time enemy, Metsähallitus.

I think this information I've heard is at least as truthful than Greenpeace's.

[Eino - we're going around in circles here - pretty much everything you talk about has already been addressed either here on the weblog or elswhere in Greenpeace literature. For instance, your comment on protected areas - I posted on that yesterday, in the comments of this blog entry. Please at least attempt to bring something original to the table, rather than just regurgitate the statements (or, if you like, propaganda) of those who oppose the protection of old-growth forests in upper Lapland. Ironically, you criticise us for 'using' the Sámi people "because in rest of Europe and the world no-one knows much about the real problems of reindeer heirding and what are the causes for the situation overall in Lapland (sic)". In fact, we're helping to provide the Sámi people with a means of putting their message out across Europe - for the very reasons you mention! - Dave]

when we are struggling against the unfair practices,particullarly included various involved groups, others may sometimes confuse to find the real points which is the best way for the best solution becuse each pits their arguments aginst the other's. Participating Greenpeace activists have faced not only severe cold weather but severer cold oppositions from short term's proponents. But we must remember an inalterable truth " whenever development promoters are planning to begin their projects,They have already finished lots of pink colored promises to make naive neighborhood people be convinced".
As their undergoing projects have changed to undesirable trends,neighbors begin thier protests.
That is the same case we have long experienced.
Beng a member of Greenpeace activists,I'll keenly look for the northern Lapland's case.

So, are you Greenpeace folks going to the INARIN POROKUNINKUUSAJOT this weekend? (Inari reindeer race... or something)

It is after all the most important sports event in the whole world! You have to see it.

Hello: Good job ¡¡¡¡

Yes, Eino, we'll be there - bring your friends along to say hello to us! Where are based anyway - Utsjoki, is it?

Dave & Friends -

Thanks for contacting my blog (www.finlandforthought.net) and posting the link to this site. I'm really happy to see that you're online and spreading this message this way because this Finnish government and Finnish media seem to be ignoring your efforts up north.

I've asked a few Finns about why Greenpeace is up in Inari, no one seems to know. Everyone heard that you were supposedly camping "illegally" but beyond that - no one has a clue as to what's going on.

Unfortunately you're up against Metsähallitus and the Finnish government. They do NOT want to get word out that Finland, the supposed most eco-friendly country in the world, is having a battle with Greenpeace. If you were battling ANY other logging company (that wasn't owned by the government), you'd have no problem fighting them - you'd probably have the government backing your efforts 100%. This issue should show everyone the need to get government out of the pockets of corporations, because when big corporations team up with big governments...there's no stopping them.

Good luck with your efforts up north!! Please keep us updated on your blog!

- Phil

This day, and every day, I am with you in spirit and heart...and commitment. As I am, in the U.S., state of Rhode Island (ex-Texas), I am contacting environmental groups about a national boycott against the importation of Canadian seafood and a boycott against travel to Canada until the seal slaughter is ended by the Canadian government. I am participating in its implementation. So, you are not alone in the challenges and fight against greed and the destruction of what we hold sacred and defendible. Thank you for your work, and please, know, you are not alone..not now and not ever.

"I'm really happy to see that you're online and spreading this message this way because this Finnish government and Finnish media seem to be ignoring your efforts up north."

Don't worry, internationally Greenpeace is superior with it's propaganda and has got media attention in many countries. Finnish government and forest companies are surely losing the media battle internationally. Almost everything the outside world knows about this situation, is from Greenpeace's information.

Finnish media is not very interested in general but in Lapland all media has been talking about this all the time.

"I've asked a few Finns about why Greenpeace is up in Inari, no one seems to know."

Even I don't know that, I just know what Greenpeace is saying they are there for!

Nail on the head there Eino - we have had quite an impact on the media internationally and nationally- that it, after all what we're good at. Call it propaganda if you will - that is your, I'm sure, a well considered and informed opinion on your behalf. But we'll have agree to disagree on your rather repetitious interpretation of our work here!

Hello Iam from the beautiful island of Puerto Rico and because we are part of the Mother Earth, the situation in Sami Reindeer Forest is important to us. We have some forest like El Yunque and Bosque(Forest)Seco de Guanica that I visit with by students and we never allow to our goverment to destroy our forest.
Thanks to Greenpeace for be part of the Mother Earth.

Blessed Be,
William

Thanks very much for what you do; I hope that you can stop the destructive logging and save this beautifull and important forests in north of finland
I would like help you !How can I help you?(It is possible I come to there for help if you need)

gytrie poiuyt http://ghjklebujo.com/

talk about good karma, you guys will have a boat load when your done, on behalf of mother earth, I thank each and everyone of you for taking a stance.

"Ironically, you criticise us for 'using' the Sámi people 'because in rest of Europe and the world no-one knows much about the real problems of reindeer heirding and what are the causes for the situation overall in Lapland (sic)'."

That's true, because now they're only hearing your opinions. I think only the local and national media is covering both sides. International aspect is however important, because you get much support internationally and pressure companies and they make decisions internationally.

"In fact, we're helping to provide the Sámi people with a means of putting their message out across Europe"

Sounds great, although I must admit I haven't really noticed you helping to put out my message across Europe yet. Well, except for not deleting my posts from this blog of course!

Forest.fi site says even 3 out of 5 reindeer heirders (which are not a majority in the Sámi people) object to Greenpeace, but I guess it's just the forest.fi "way of looking at things", as Dave would say.

Something new propaganda to the table!
http://www.forest.fi/smyforest/foresteng.nsf/tiedotteetlookup/9A1A0B9426A45B4BC2256FCE002EC3BD

"Researcher: Greenpeace’s report worthless"

Leading reindeer researcher in Finland, senior researcher Mauri Nieminen from the Finnish Game and Fisheries Institute and the director of Institute’s Reindeer Research Station in Kaamanen, Inari, says that the report in itself is a good example of this. According to Nieminen, the report bypasses all the biggest problems in reindeer herding of which over-grazing – due to too many reindeers – is the most important in addition with the bad market situation. “The report is a one-sided overstatement. It even claims that the present protection areas in Upper Lapland are poor for reindeers. Researchers have found them to be just the opposite, good. For instance Sweden and Norway have nothing like it to the benefit the reindeers,” Nieminen says. Depending on the municipality, 30–40% of the area of productive forests are protected in Upper Lapland.

Nieminen says that the report’s sources skate on thin ice. Even though the whole dispute centres on reindeer grazing pastures, it makes no use of scientific grazing studies. The situation with pastures and grazing also differs from what the report leads to understand. It is possible to say, according to Nieminen, that the situation is roughly better in those areas of Upper Lapland where there’s forestry. He adds that “a closer inspection shows that significant parts of the report’s source material are either interviews or other statements given by the authors.”

Nieminen calls himself a long run conservationist and he has been a member of FANC for about thirty years. This report, however, was too much: he decided to resign his membership. Also MP for the Green Party in Finland, Mr. Erkki Pulliainen, a professor of zoology in the University of Oulu has similar views with Nieminen. He says that the horsetail lichen that Greenpeace claims to be important food for reindeers and disappearing because of fellings is in fact only emergency food for reindeer. “The hay that grows on felled areas is more important for the reindeer,” he stated in the newspaper Maaseudun Tulevaisuus. Also the amount of growth of horsetail lichen available for the reindeers is minimal: about a kilo per hectare per year.

Hi Eino and all,
I have just checked out the website that you mentioned. It looks like any other country's site on forestry. By this I mean that the forestry is priding themselves to be SOOO ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY,looking for everybodies welfare, be it the loggers, the Samis or the old forests and the endangered animals. Self-glorification( we are no bad guys!!!).

If your forestry is so perfect, can you please tell me why there is a need in Finland ( and in Sweden) to IMPORT illegally sourced timber from national parks in Estonia?

Stora Enso is involved in this dirty business too!

This report was released last year by WWF.

Eino, and all people in the Finnish Forest Association, please stop calling Greenpeace a Stalinistic or Nazi NGO, the real criminals can be found in the forest industry, be it in Finland, Sweden or Indonesia.

Ann

I haven't called Greenpeace anything yet (well possibly something just a little, you can't remember everything!), I just reported what respected nature conservatists and researchers have said.

"I have just checked out the website that you mentioned. It looks like any other country's site on forestry. By this I mean that the forestry is priding themselves to be SOOO ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY"

And Greenpeace is priding themselves SOOO ABOVE ALL THAT.

Of course I know the Forest.fi is propaganda. Just like all Greenpeace sites.

However I believe the statement from "Leading reindeer researcher in Finland, senior researcher Mauri Nieminen from the Finnish Game and Fisheries Institute and the director of Institute’s Reindeer Research Station in Kaamanen, Inari" is still not made up.
And there is real information too on that site.

"If your forestry is so perfect, can you please tell me why there is a need in Finland ( and in Sweden) to IMPORT illegally sourced timber from national parks in Estonia?"

Why don't you go and try to stop that then, and leave northern Lapland.

Dave asked me to bring something new to the table, so here it is.

I see some of my earlier messages haven't been published. Your web site is saying after posting, that only the _first message_ of inviduals is being checked and moderated. Is your web site lying? Looks like _all_ the messages are being checked. I hope you are going to correct that notice, if there is a mistake.

http://www.forest.fi/smyforest/foresteng.nsf/tiedotteetlookup/9A1A0B9426A45B4BC2256FCE002EC3BD

Researcher: Greenpeace’s report worthless
Greenpeace and Finnish Association for Nature Conservation released a proposal to solve the dispute on Monday 21st of March. They want to expand the Metsähallitus region of Upper Lapland to include the state-owned commercial forestry areas to the south from Inari, and to move all state-owned forests in the new area to non-commercial and non-profit forestry. The proposal was based on a report made by the very same organizations. “One of the problems is that people in general do not know of reindeer herding and therefore it can be treated in whichever way one wishes”, states the report.

Leading reindeer researcher in Finland, senior researcher Mauri Nieminen from the Finnish Game and Fisheries Institute and the director of Institute’s Reindeer Research Station in Kaamanen, Inari, says that the report in itself is a good example of this. According to Nieminen, the report bypasses all the biggest problems in reindeer herding of which over-grazing – due to too many reindeers – is the most important in addition with the bad market situation. “The report is a one-sided overstatement. It even claims that the present protection areas in Upper Lapland are poor for reindeers. Researchers have found them to be just the opposite, good. For instance Sweden and Norway have nothing like it to the benefit the reindeers,” Nieminen says. Depending on the municipality, 30–40% of the area of productive forests are protected in Upper Lapland.

Nieminen says that the report’s sources skate on thin ice. Even though the whole dispute centres on reindeer grazing pastures, it makes no use of scientific grazing studies. The situation with pastures and grazing also differs from what the report leads to understand. It is possible to say, according to Nieminen, that the situation is roughly better in those areas of Upper Lapland where there’s forestry. He adds that “a closer inspection shows that significant parts of the report’s source material are either interviews or other statements given by the authors.”

Nieminen calls himself a long run conservationist and he has been a member of FANC for about thirty years. This report, however, was too much: he decided to resign his membership. Also MP for the Green Party in Finland, Mr. Erkki Pulliainen, a professor of zoology in the University of Oulu has similar views with Nieminen. He says that the horsetail lichen that Greenpeace claims to be important food for reindeers and disappearing because of fellings is in fact only emergency food for reindeer. “The hay that grows on felled areas is more important for the reindeer,” he stated in the newspaper Maaseudun Tulevaisuus. Also the amount of growth of horsetail lichen available for the reindeers is minimal: about a kilo per hectare per year.

I'd just like to say that Greenpeace is the best organization in the world. I think that Greenpeace activists are right to go and save the forests. Whoever wants to chop them down is the craziest person on the Planet.

As soon as I convince my parents that Greenpeace is brilliant and sucessfull, I'll be fighting with you.

Good luck Greenpeace, Yazzy

I am in the middle of a huge school project on habitat destruction. Please can you tell me which animals are most in danger from the logging?

Luke Baxter

Belgium

Hi Luke,
Unfortunately I'm not an expert on this but animals that are dependent on oldgrowth forest are the golden eagles, the Siberian jays and the reindeers.

Hi Luke - the animals that are potentially threatened by the loss or fragmentation of old growth forests do include siberian jays, golden eagles and capercaillies. There's also fungi species which are under threat.

Reindeer as a species are under threat - it's the culture of reindeer herding that is.

Well done team, keep up the good work.

Post some pictures of loggers in action - chainsaws, skidders, logging trucks with company logos, faces of those doing the destruction. Might have to be telephoto lenses though!!!

"I have just checked out the website that you mentioned. It looks like any other country's site on forestry. By this I mean that the forestry is priding themselves to be SOOO ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY,looking for everybodies"

I recognize its propaganda, just like this Greenpeace site's. But when there are interviews of people like the chairman of the council of Inari, also known as an active member of Finnish Association for Nature Protection (FANC), i believe those interviews are real. Or when there's an interview of the leading reindeer researcher in Finland, senior researcher Mauri Nieminen from the Finnish Game and Fisheries Institute and the director of Institute’s Reindeer Research Station in Kaamanen, Inari. I happen to personally respect him for his knowledge. Just like Greenpeace's interviews with reindeer heirders supporting them are probably real too.

"Self-glorification( we are no bad guys!!!)."

Yes, just like Greenpeace.

"If your forestry is so perfect, can you please tell me why there is a need in Finland (and in Sweden) to IMPORT illegally sourced timber from national parks in Estonia?"

Does Metsähallitus and Stora Enso do that? I suggest Greenpeace to move its Forest Rescue Station to the national parks of Estonia immediately!

Hello Eino,
In 2002 Stora Enso was involved in illegal logging in Lahemaa National Park in Estonia( unfortunately I can't give you the link,because I have trouble with my computer!!!)

And it has become apparent recently that Stora Enso has been directly involved in illegal logging practices in Estonia:

http://www.fern.org/pubs/ngostats/EIA%20assessment%2005.04.pdf

Hi Dave,Irene, Eino,all,
I have a funny Sami story for you today!

Actually today was the first time ever I was out in Stockholm campaigning for GP in our new "SAVE OUR OCEANS" campaign.

So how did it go?

Eino, the first person I met was Björn, a Swedish Sami, selling reindeer meat in a fast food shop.I asked him politely if he could sign our petition on the seas, but first he was a bit unwilling, like "you Greenpeacer go home!!". Now, he was angry with Greenpeace because GP had protested against seal hunts in Greenland ( and Canada?) in the 70's and 80's.

OK, didn't want to argue with him, so I told him that I thought this was an old story and hasn't GP even officially regretted that they protested against Inuit seal hunting?

Then I asked the Sami if he had heard about Greenpeace's actions in Upper Lapland. Yes, he had heard a little, and I talked to him for a long time and informed him on the situation! Well, this story ended that Björn, my Sami friend is now a dedicated Greenpeacer and invited me to eat for free a delicate Sami lunch!

Ann

"I have just checked out the website that you mentioned. It looks like any other country's site on forestry. By this I mean that the forestry is priding themselves to be SOOO ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY,looking for everybodies"

I recognize its propaganda, just like this Greenpeace site's. But when there are interviews of people like the chairman of the council of Inari, also known as an active member of Finnish Association for Nature Protection (FANC), i believe those interviews are real. Or when there's an interview of the leading reindeer researcher in Finland, senior researcher Mauri Nieminen from the Finnish Game and Fisheries Institute and the director of Institute’s Reindeer Research Station in Kaamanen, Inari. I happen to personally respect him for his knowledge. Just like Greenpeace's interviews with reindeer heirders supporting them are probably real too.

"Self-glorification( we are no bad guys!!!)."

Yes, just like Greenpeace.

"If your forestry is so perfect, can you please tell me why there is a need in Finland (and in Sweden) to IMPORT illegally sourced timber from national parks in Estonia?"

Does Metsähallitus do that? I suggest Greenpeace to move its Forest Rescue Station to the national parks of Estonia then, immediately.

I assumed there wouldn't be any annoying mosquito's at this time of the year, but Eino proves me wrong! He must be in it for the sports ;)

You should go home here lapland!
over 3000 people can´t stand greenpeace in lapland (inari&ivalo)
Go away until some one get lost the reindeers!

First, Matti Liimatainen is not a scientist,no education. He's a self made man who can talk much.
He and Jarmo can't show anything what they say is truth.
You Gp believers should read what real scietist say
about the situation in Inari. Matti & co are not
high priests.
Gp is only a money hunting organisation and is riding on a reideer wave to get money from finnish
forest companies. Sami people means anything them
like the inuits ment them nothing few years ago.
If forest company don't do like gp says - it suffers.
I'd like that finnish police did the same as french secret police in New Zealand and destroy your camp with TNT.
And where would you be if not here?
In kola peninsula is a nuclear disaster going or
just beginnig - and you are trekking here.
Maybe you are afraid of russians you heroes.
In amazon is going on a disaster - you you eat sausages in Inari.
Air and forests are polluted in middle europe -
you play here in inari.
And what about oceans and whole africa and china and the rest of far east? Maybe you are afraid
your health.Here is so safe. If you get sick, you can't spend the money you get easily from europe and scandinavia.
Jarmo and Matti,it would be best if you shoot your brains away. World is a better place then.

Lähtekää pois sieltä Lapista! Turha tänne mitään ulkomaalaisia on raahata. Hyvä kun ne ees tietää mikä Suomi on.

I have to thank you, because you have show me and many others, how you can make camp in the woods. Maybe next autumn when I go hunting I will have same kind of illegal hunting camp in national park of Lemmenjoki.

Hi guys,

Back in the Netherlands, but in heart still with you! Reading the weblogs with great estonishment (thanx Dave!) And for al the people in the camp: keep up the faith!

Marielle

I have a really warm feeling in my heart reading all you guys are doing
I think it is great that still some people fight for changes, for a better world, for the healing of mother earth
I think it is so important and amazing what you do and I really admire you and send you lots of thoughts

Good luck to you all for all the things you are doing!!!!!
Laetitia from Brussels

Hello, I want to express my fully support to this brave activists that spend their time and their energy to protect the wonderfull Finnish forests; because it is incontrovertible that the deforestation is the real threat for our ancient forests and consequence for the future of our earth !!!

The FSC is the real solution !

Dear Rainbow Warriors,
I'm from Russia and know very well how violent could be loggers. Actually it's their profession to kill. Day by day they are killing trees. What can we expect from such kind of people?

Big greenpeace family is really worring what's going on at Forest Resque Station. I know this because I was in GPI meeting today and saw how people here really supported all you are doing here. We saw pictures and videos and it is impossible to imagine that it could happend in 21 century in european country especially!

We are mentally with you, support you and are praying for you.

Good luck,
No pasaran!

Yours Elena

What was that gasoline accident in Ivalo? And what happened in Paadarskaidi whit your trucks tank?

Ain't it illegal to put petrol in the ground and isn't also bad for nature.

Hi Jarno - there was no accident. Some important work needed to be done on one our vans - and someone with a little too much time on their hands decided to phone the police and fire service. It must have been one hell of a slow news day to make the media! Greenpeace in Van Shocker!

At Paadarskaidi, the outer part of one our truck tanks was dented - it didn't fracture, however, so nothing was spilled.

I just read in the Lapin radio newspage that UN Committee on Human Rights says that logging in the Paadarskaidi and other places does not break sami people rights to rehearse their culture.

People are missing fact that in Finland, year by year there is more forest growing than it is cut down ... That is called silviculture. There are very severe laws against destroying forest and it is taken care that NEW forest is planted allways when tree is felling ...

Do you REALLY believe that forests are disappearing from Finland? If you are this is really sad thing and Greenpeace should be in shame ...

Hi Sami - no, no one believes that forests - or forestry - is disappearing (you've got lots of forest here). What is under threat are the old growth forests, which are important to reindeer herding, as well as having their own integrity.

Hi Dave

Ok ... please explain ... In the world there are countries which are consuming forests and are not planting any new, so why you are not saving those forests (In South America for example or Russia where huge areas are spoiled with oil)? It seems like it is big adventure most of GP people to come Lapland than actually doing something useful ...

And how do comments claims that there too many reindeers and they are eating too much?

Secondly, where do you believe that these loggers are getting money for their living now on?

I remember last time in Finland 80's there was same kind issue in Lapland about old forests that they are not cut never and old loggers told that 1930 they were at work there cutting down trees ...

So, do you in Greenpeace understand that taking care of forests it is long task and you propably are not seeing results about trees which are planted today. And long after you and I are gone, reindeers and trees are still there and will be for a long time...

At last, Dave, could you tell me how old is old forest (I mean can you define that for me)?

Hi Sami: Firstly, we are just a few Greenpeace people working here in Finland - there are many more working around the world. So just because we're working here, doesn't mean we're not doing things in other places.

More details on our forest campaigns
Nun assassinated defending Amazon forests
Amazon Crime Files
Amazon Forests
Greenpeace Russia and forests

Jobs for loggers: We've already discussed that one here »

Sami - our point is that YES, taking care of forests is a long task. We want to ensure that the old-growth forest isn't taken just to make money in the short term. No one knows if these forests every recover. Industrial logging, when compared to the lifecycle of a pine tree, is a relatively new thing.

Which brings us to old-growth forest - which we would define as original forest, whose natural cycles of growth have not been disturbed by logging, road-building roads or clearing.

From an interview with reindeer herders:
Winter pastures with tree hanging lichen are vitl to the co-operative of Muotkatunturi. "In early spring the tree hanging lichen is needed. It is a crucial factor for us... Old-growth forests are important for the lichen but also for the trees and the shelter they provide", says Pilvi. "Our reindeer live 100% from nature and get everything they need from around them. That's why this is such a sensitive issue. If the last old-growth forests and lichen forests are taken from us, we will have to start feeding the reindeer, which will decrease our profitability... And that's not all, we would be forced to use more motor vehicles and that will affect everything... This is the most ecological way to herd reindeer - but this doesn't seem to matter at all."
More »

Check out our Frequently Asked Questions

As for the 'too many reindeer' argument - you could argue that the useful grazing areas are too little.

If you scroll down this article, you'll see that reindeer numbers have actually dropped in recent years.

Yes reindeer numbers are dropped, but just because reindeer herders have to kill reindeers. There is no room for anymore reindeer. Every paliskunta (i don't know that word for english) has maximum of reindeers.

And I still say that even if every forest here are protected there will be lot of troubles with reindeer herders and samis to survive.

Hi Jarno - Of course, we're not claiming that the protection of old-growth forest will solve all all of the problems of reindeer herding and Sámi culture.

But what do you suggest all parties concerned do to try to solve these problems?

Jarno writes: 'I just read in the Lapin radio newspage that UN Committee on Human Rights says that logging in the Paadarskaidi and other places does not break sami people rights to rehearse their culture.'

Yes, it's being pitched that way by some of the media. We're currently looking into the UN announcement - should have more on it later.

I'm not so wise that I could give every parties satisfying answer. But that I know that everybody have to step back and take another view of things.

Forest protection is not a answer. Here is allready lot of protected forests.

Your actions has only made people against each other here. And when you leave here (soon I hope) you leave behind lot of angry people. Old hates between familys has now digged out of graves.

Jarno - I think that various people have other opinions on that. I've been told - by people here in Inari and around - that these problems and tensions have been bubbling below the surface here for years. One person told us that he's been working on the issue for 50 years!

Maybe people are angry - but at least they're talking about the situation, rather than hoping that it just goes away.

"Which brings us to old-growth forest - which we would define as original forest, whose natural cycles of growth have not been disturbed by logging, road-building roads or clearing."

Sounds intresting ... logging and clearing is propably done for all forests that exists in Finland, more or less also for protected forests. Only group where this old-growth definition is true is very young forest which is waiting for first logging in serie of many still to come ...
I think that you will deny this fact so it is no use to argue about this. Anyone can make own decision ...

Sami - I'm sratching my head over that one. It's not that I agree or disagree. I just can't understand your point! You're saying that old-growth forest is actually young forest? No... you're gonna have to explain that one to me.

I have to hurry so shortly:

My point is that your definition for old forest match only for young forest due the fact that all forest are treatet in Finland. If not during 10 years, may be in 20, 50 or 100 year ago ... So, your definition should be changed ...

Main issue here is, who owns these lands. Samis claims that forest are them and not owned by gouverment.

If there will be a solution for that problem and samis get allmost all forests, who will protect those forest then. We have seen few of them cutting down all their forests.

And Matti Liimatainen has sayed in Lapin Kansa that Greenpeace are not interested what people do on their forests.

I'm afraid of future.

I'm still baffled. You're saying that are no old-growth forests at all?

Jarno, I think you're confusing the use of forests and the ownership of forests. We have never said that we want any of the forests under discussion to become privately owned. In fact, you could argue that the history 'ownership' by the state, followed by private ownership is what has fueled a lot of the land-rights debate.

No one is talking about about private ownership of these forests. What Matti said in Lapin Kansa was that Greenpeace is not interested in what people do on their *private* forests. Our issue here is the state-owned land.

Yes you are protecting state-owned land now, but what I ment was worst scenario future.

If samis get their demandings and allmost all land, which is now state owned, they can do what every they want and you don't care about that. That is not so nature friendly.

And it's true that this discussion of land ownership relations is not your busines, but it is behind everything what happens in these forests.

Pekka Aikio has also said that.

dave,

you got the point! At least if you are using your own definition of old-growth forest, you propably have to look very hard to find that kind of forest here ... I am not saying that you cannot find that kind of forest but you cannot say certainly which forest is untouchable and which is not ...

Sami - I think we'll have to agree to differ on this one!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I'm reading about your efforts and I want you to know that you are acting for the world, for nature , for all of humanity and I wish you all the power, courage and love you need to successfully complete your mission.
I'm writing letters.
Janet
Melbourne, Australia

Hello,

Our names are Nina and Aislinn from Holland. We are 12 years old and we are having a presentation at school about Greenpeace actions for keeping the forests in Finland.
We think you're doing a great job. We like reindeers and we think the Sami people should live with their reindeers in the forests.

So we say to the Finnish government.
KEEP THE OLD-TREES ALIVE!

Dear Nina and Aislinn,

Forest are NOT disappearing from Finland beside whatever Greenpeace is saying. There have been forests here and will be in the future, Greenpeace has no influence to that. Is is sad to read that people all over the world (at least who are listen to Greenpeace) believies that Finnish people are destroying forests. Hopefully dave could share truthfully information about this?

Hi Nina and Aislinn, and 'Sami' - we never said that forests are disappearing - we said that old-growth forests are being destroyed by the Finnish state forestry company, Metsähallitus.

Good luck with the school presentation!

Hi dave,

could you be more precise, you are talking some of the "old-growth" forests! Your campain is just dealing part of Lappland, Finland has long history about protecting forests. You should also tell that. As I am reading messages, people are truly believing that ALL "old-growth" forest are disappearing which is not true.

And as I told before, Greenpeace definition of old-growth forests itself is wrong. You cannot never say which forest is old-growth by Greenpeace definition. And how you ever can get old-growth forest is you don't plant any new forest?!

The campaign is dealing specifically with old-growth forests in Lapland yes. But more generally, we are concerned with the loss of old-growth forests worldwide. Old-growth forests are disappearing.

You do say that we have a different definition of 'old-growth' to you. If that's the case, perhaps in your definition, old-growth forests are not under threat - but under our definition, they most certainly are.

By the way - old-growth forests aren't planned or planted. They are naturally occuring forests, that have existed within a natural cycle, long before industrial forestry came long. To say that you need to plant new forests to get old growth forests... doesn't make any sense at all!

- Dave

Dear Friends, six years ago I was travelling in Scandinavia. I had the luck of meeting Lapland, the Taiga and the Sami culture. I get in love with it. Since then, I've been studing as much about Sami people and their country and looking for the way of meeting and helping better this country and people. I'm moving to Scandinavia in two weeks with this as an objective. As I'm member of greenpeace and I'd like to be more activ, I wonder if there is any chance of being activist in the Forest Rescue Station in Lapland. I'm biologist (zoologist) and expert in biodiversity, environmental education, forest conservation and sustainable tourism. I know I can do a lot to help Sami people. Tell me how to help and I'll do.

Hi Dave,



I think I can clarify the issue about old growth forests.



First your definition:
"Which brings us to old-growth forest - which we would define as original forest, whose natural cycles of growth have not been disturbed by logging, road-building roads or clearing."



Finland has a history of loggin since at least the Roman empire times, during which Fins sold tar to the Romans to use on their ships. Because of this tar production fins logged their forest atleast 2000+ years ago. Now who is to say which forests were logged back then and which were not? We can assume that most of the forest logged were near sea or major rivers and lakes which would allow the trees to be easily transported where they were needed for the tar production, but can not know for sure. Furthermore during the 17th century Finland was the largest exporter of tar in the world, which also required massive loggings.



So your definition of old forest and/or arguments of the forest not being able to renew are quite weak, as we can be quite sure that just about all forest in Finland has been logged during one time or another.



"To say that you need to plant new forests to get old growth forests... doesn't make any sense at all!"



In Finland forest are planted to allow faster renewal of the forest after a logging has taken place. Eventually you will not be able to tell which one is "new" or "old" forest, it is just a matter of time. If we didn't plant the new forest it would take a lot longer for the aforest to grow back. So it is you whose definitions don't make any sense.



It is the ignorance of the people in Greenpeace and people who support them that causes this kind of misinformation being thrown around, and it is most unfortunate. (At least I hope it is the ignorance and not done in purpose.)



Finally Greenpeace is leaving the area tail between their legs, GREAT! The people of the world and specifically the people in the northern Finland won this battle against this terrorist group.

Dear Victor, it is very noble of You to want to help these poor, uncivilized Sami savages who are trying to continue the ecological, centuries old tradition of reindeer herding under the pressure of the cruel modern society. The best way You can support and help these children of the Mother Nature is to collect as much money as possible and deliver it to reindeer herders. Remember, one family needs to buy two ski doos every year, that makes about 14 000 - 18 000 euros/a. All terrain vehicles and motocross bikes are needed in summer and autumn, vans around the year. Fuel up here is very expensive, and also the helicopter costs in reindeer collecting time are huge. So, a donation large enough would maybe help some families to postpone the decision of cutting down their on forests (ca. 200 hectares given to each who has build a reideer farm).

Thanks for not approving my message a moment ago, it was quite eyes opening.

Markku - your email address (markku.ahonen@inari.fi) suggests that you're an employee of Inari Municipality. These remarks (possibly racist? Certainly anti-reindeer herder!) seem very strange coming from the same Inari Municipality!

It looks like the allegedly (and questionably) 'huge' collection of signatures against Greenpeace in Inari was also a petition against reindeer herders.

As a visitor, I'm shocked at such public bigotry coming from a public servant.

You didn't answer the question Markku asked.
I wanna hear it too!
You collect money from all over the world
to yourselves. Why not to people that need your help? I'm shocked too, cause you don't help
the sami people by money.

Metsätalous on Suomen selkäranka. Vastustamalla hakkuita ette tee muuta kuin hallaa kaikille. Greenpeacen aktivistit ovat yhteiskunnan syöpä. Käyttäkää energianne kehittävään toimintaan!
-Ympäristötieteen opiskelija-

"It looks like the allegedly (and questionably) 'huge' collection of signatures against Greenpeace in Inari was also a petition against reindeer herders."

No it was not against reindeer herders. It was against greenpeace. And there was also sami reindeer herders signatures. 3000 thousand people want you out of here. Most of the signatures wasfrom people who live here or from people who has birth here.

And in the democracy people who decide things do just what most of the voters want.

Hei
I'm still waiting the answer to markku's
question!
Why don't you give some of your huge budged
to sami reindeer herders?
They survive if you help them by money, not if you just talk an talk and talk...
By the way, in Kola peninsula, there's growing a
nuclear disaster and you don't do anything?????